I'm a human drum machine

I haven't ever heard you play, but I can only assume you are "one of the best"! ;)

Well, I make no bones about what my shortcomings are, and am completely honest with myself about what I can and can't do, but there's a certain amount of moxie you have to have if you're gonna be the drummer in the band. I'll tell you this much, I was the best that night on that gig ;)
 
Again, with no context? Come on guys, this old argument is always just so one sided. Where's the pespective from the other side of the coin? Where's the room for a musical context outside of a top 40 cover band? The vast majority of my paid drumming life has been spent laying down a 4/4. No question, it's vital and you have to be able to do it. But while we're preaching it from the mountain tops, why not add the persepective that the musical context is everything? It dictates, not some preconcieved mandate on a drum forum.

Imagine Danny Carey thinking his musical ideas for Tool were out of line and he was to only play 2 and 4. Bonham's creativity would have been completely stifled if he genuinely thought that was all a drummer was ever allowed to play. We'd have no Gadd, no Vinnie, no Purdie, no Cobham. no Paice, no Cozy Powell. Moonie would never have worked in the first place.....he'd have been destined to a life of flipping burgers. Not to mention the jazz greats.....how would they have gone just pushing a 4/4/ groove? Think of everything we would have lost if absolutely everyone thought the same way.

I'm all for simplicity, really I am. But I get tired of seeing these same old madates get pushed without fear nor favour of any musical context whatsoever. Every time this gets raised, it does so with absolutely no balance whatsoever. What applies in one situation, doesn't necessarily apply in another.....yet we never mention that. It is simply ignored in favour of a "one size fits all" approach to music. Dunno about you guys, but I hate that. That's the kind of thinking that leads to sameness....to a souless approach where everyone thinks exactly the same way because they've read that they should. Sometimes boundaries need to be pushed and if your musical context allows or calls for it......then push away. There's two sides to every coin, even musical ones. If the side you flip calls for a little flair, then there's nothing wrong with working hard to develop it. Some genres just demand it.

Breaking the 4/4 mold doesn't make you a bad musician.....not knowing the context of when to do it does. It seems that people geniunely believe that in order to "serve" music you almost have to disappear from it. Listen to the great music that been created....it just not always true. I've said this before and I'll say it again. "Serving the music" doesn't mean you always bring it bread and water any more than it always means you bring it champagne and caviar. Knowing the difference is what being a "musician" is all about.
 
I think the great majority of people, musicians and non alike, want to hear relentless beat and not much else from the drums.

Which is why drum machines are increasingly replacing us. People don't want artistry from the drums any more. They tried that from the 50s to the 70s and it's now a case of "been there done that".

Thing is, if the drummer doesn't provide something obvious that machines can't give, then why bother with a drummer? I emphasised "obvious" because if feel was as important as it is sometimes said, then audiences would have objected to the drum machine music that now dominates.

Machines don't take up much space, are unpaid, don't turn up late, don't speed up, don't throw in offputting gratuitous licks, don't have attitude etc. There are a few scenes where drums are still wanted but most of them are diminishing, usually centering around the look and vibe of a drummer live and the fact that a good drummer is easier to "program" than a machine.

In the not-so-distant future this thread will be titled "I AM a drum machine!" and all the replies will say, "Well duh! Who isn't?".

FOOLS!! YOU ARE ALL DOOMED!! WHY WON'T ANYONE LISTEN TO ME! YOU HAVE MAYBE 20 YEARS AT BEST! MACHINES WILL CONQUER THE EARTH AND A NEW RU ..... MMM MM MM ... *masking tape applied by men in white coats as I'm dragged off*

Great post, Jules - you're on fire!
 
Again, with no context? Come on guys, this old argument is always just so one sided. Where's the pespective from the other side of the coin? Where's the room for a musical context outside of a top 40 cover band? The vast majority of my paid drumming life has been spent laying down a 4/4. No question, it's vital and you have to be able to do it. But while we're preaching it from the mountain tops, why not add the persepective that the musical context is everything? It dictates, not some preconcieved mandate on a drum forum.

Imagine Danny Carey thinking his musical ideas for Tool were out of line and he was to only play 2 and 4. Bonham's creativity would have been completely stifled if he genuinely thought that was all a drummer was ever allowed to play. We'd have no Gadd, no Vinnie, no Purdie, no Cobham. no Paice, no Cozy Powell. Moonie would never have worked in the first place.....he'd have been destined to a life of flipping burgers. Not to mention the jazz greats.....how would they have gone just pushing a 4/4/ groove? Think of everything we would have lost if absolutely everyone thought the same way.

I'm all for simplicity, really I am. But I get tired of seeing these same old madates get pushed without fear nor favour of any musical context whatsoever. Every time this gets raised, it does so with absolutely no balance whatsoever. What applies in one situation, doesn't necessarily apply in another.....yet we never mention that. It is simply ignored in favour of a "one size fits all" approach to music. Dunno about you guys, but I hate that. That's the kind of thinking that leads to sameness....to a souless approach where everyone thinks exactly the same way because they've read that they should. Sometimes boundaries need to be pushed and if your musical context allows or calls for it......then push away. There's two sides to every coin, even musical ones. If the side you flip calls for a little flair, then there's nothing wrong with working hard to develop it. Some genres just demand it.

Breaking the 4/4 mold doesn't make you a bad musician.....not knowing the context of when to do it does. It seems that people geniunely believe that in order to "serve" music you almost have to disappear from it. Listen to the great music that been created....it just not always true. I've said this before and I'll say it again. "Serving the music" doesn't mean you always bring it bread and water any more than it always means you bring it champagne and caviar. Knowing the difference is what being a "musician" is all about.

Sorry PFOG - I wasn't looking to start an argument or say there was some mandate that had to be honored. I was just stating that I had a gig, and this is what I did most of the night. No context needed there. That's just what happened. Like you, I was just stating how important it is to be able to do that should you have to. I didn't say the complicated stuff was not important. But the musical ear and judgment is tantamount - and I suppose you only get that after endless gigs like mine and playing what's right and what's wrong. No other way around it, I guess.
 
Which is why drum machines are increasingly replacing us. People don't want artistry from the drums any more. They tried that from the 50s to the 70s and it's now a case of "been there done that".

Thing is, if the drummer doesn't provide something obvious that machines can't give, then why bother with a drummer? I emphasised "obvious" because if feel was as important as it is sometimes said, then audiences would have objected to the drum machine music that now dominates.

Machines don't take up much space, are unpaid, don't turn up late, don't speed up, don't throw in offputting gratuitous licks, don't have attitude etc. There are a few scenes where drums are still wanted but most of them are diminishing, usually centering around the look and vibe of a drummer live and the fact that a good drummer is easier to "program" than a machine.

In the not-so-distant future this thread will be titled "I AM a drum machine!" and all the replies will say, "Well duh! Who isn't?".

FOOLS!! YOU ARE ALL DOOMED!! WHY WON'T ANYONE LISTEN TO ME! YOU HAVE MAYBE 20 YEARS AT BEST! MACHINES WILL CONQUER THE EARTH AND A NEW RU ..... MMM MM MM ... *masking tape applied by men in white coats as I'm dragged off*

Great post, Jules - you're on fire!

And as I did in the 80s - if anyone is looking to replace me on a gig with a machine, it'll be ME with the machine doing it! And I'll charge more because now it's a computer-based skill rather than a musical skill ;)
 
Sorry PFOG - I wasn't looking to start an argument or say there was some mandate that had to be honored. I was just stating that I had a gig, and this is what I did most of the night. No context needed there. That's just what happened. Like you, I was just stating how important it is to be able to do that should you have to. I didn't say the complicated stuff was not important. But the musical ear and judgment is tantamount - and I suppose you only get that after endless gigs like mine and playing what's right and what's wrong. No other way around it, I guess.

Not at all mate. I've woken up in a particularly chipper mood this morning and thought what a fabulous opportunity to stir the pot and have a giggle at the same time. Whilst I stand behind every word and I reckon we could do with discussing the context more often than we do, there is definitely more bark than bite to that rant. I certainly get your orginal intention, but I did see the thread evolving towards the one sided again and took the opportunity to steamroll into the mix and make a little bit of noise. It's been far too quiet Downunder, so thought I'd shake the tree a bit and see what falls out. :)
 
And as I did in the 80s - if anyone is looking to replace me on a gig with a machine, it'll be ME with the machine doing it! And I'll charge more because now it's a computer-based skill rather than a musical skill ;)

Keys players are the danger once they get control over drum modules. It sure is a computer based skill these days - I was fine with the old TR707 but I can't get it together with the software based ones. I seem to be getting dumber with age.

There's tons of solo performers (apart from DJs) out there with drum machines now. People just swallow it up. Society feeds us plastic shit and we just swallow it up like greedy babies - no discernment, no ideals. What SHOULD be happening is that the second the performer turns on the drum machine he or she is dealt with a torrent of abuse from the audience ("Take your stinkin' machines away!"). Then the crowd would walk out en masse, declaring to the bar owner that they won't swallow lame synthetic rhythms any more.

The crowd would make clear that they won't return until they hear real flesh and blood beats that honour the essential rhythms of life and the natural world - our breathing, our heartbeats, the day and night, the seasons, lovemaking, walking and running, the cadences of speech etc. A travesty that all this beauty is reduced to bloody doof doof and we lame robots just take it. Ditto gymnasiums.

It's Antipodean Idealistic Rage Day!
 
Again, with no context? Come on guys, this old argument is always just so one sided. Where's the pespective from the other side of the coin? Where's the room for a musical context outside of a top 40 cover band? The vast majority of my paid drumming life has been spent laying down a 4/4. No question, it's vital and you have to be able to do it. But while we're preaching it from the mountain tops, why not add the persepective that the musical context is everything? It dictates, not some preconcieved mandate on a drum forum.

Imagine Danny Carey thinking his musical ideas for Tool were out of line and he was to only play 2 and 4. Bonham's creativity would have been completely stifled if he genuinely thought that was all a drummer was ever allowed to play. We'd have no Gadd, no Vinnie, no Purdie, no Cobham. no Paice, no Cozy Powell. Moonie would never have worked in the first place.....he'd have been destined to a life of flipping burgers. Not to mention the jazz greats.....how would they have gone just pushing a 4/4/ groove? Think of everything we would have lost if absolutely everyone thought the same way.

I'm all for simplicity, really I am. But I get tired of seeing these same old madates get pushed without fear nor favour of any musical context whatsoever. Every time this gets raised, it does so with absolutely no balance whatsoever. What applies in one situation, doesn't necessarily apply in another.....yet we never mention that. It is simply ignored in favour of a "one size fits all" approach to music. Dunno about you guys, but I hate that. That's the kind of thinking that leads to sameness....to a souless approach where everyone thinks exactly the same way because they've read that they should. Sometimes boundaries need to be pushed and if your musical context allows or calls for it......then push away. There's two sides to every coin, even musical ones. If the side you flip calls for a little flair, then there's nothing wrong with working hard to develop it. Some genres just demand it.

Breaking the 4/4 mold doesn't make you a bad musician.....not knowing the context of when to do it does. It seems that people geniunely believe that in order to "serve" music you almost have to disappear from it. Listen to the great music that been created....it just not always true. I've said this before and I'll say it again. "Serving the music" doesn't mean you always bring it bread and water any more than it always means you bring it champagne and caviar. Knowing the difference is what being a "musician" is all about.

To answer the question posed, no context, this argument is one sided...there was no argument or debate, only one narrow aspect of music was being discussed. Where's the perspective from the other side of the coin?.... only one side of the coin was being discussed. Where's the room for musical context outside of a top 40 cover band?....plenty of room, all over the place. Why not add the perspective that the music context is everything?.....stating the obvious. But I totally agree with you.

The examples of drummers you provided don't apply here. We're talking pre existing songs that have established parts. It sounds like what you are saying is it's OK to hack up tried and true drum parts, just so you don't have to play the dreaded 2 and 4. I know that's not what you're saying at all, but it could be taken that way. I don't understand why you think that anyone has said all music must adhere to these guidelines, nothing of the sort was said.

I admit I am way biased. Fusion music doesn't move my soul like a great greasy groove can, so I don't even include it. Same with jazz, it's beyond my scope. I'll leave that for the great fusion and jazz players who are so far beyond my comprehension.

Friends still?
 
There's tons of solo performers (apart from DJs) out there with drum machines now. People just swallow it up. Society feeds us plastic shit and we just swallow it up like greedy babies - no discernment, no ideals. What SHOULD be happening is that the second the performer turns on the drum machine he or she is dealt with a torrent of abuse from the audience ("Take your stinkin' machines away!"). Then the crowd would walk out en masse, declaring to the bar owner that they won't swallow lame synthetic rhythms any more.

The crowd would make clear that they won't return until they hear real flesh and blood beats that honour the essential rhythms of life and the natural world - our breathing, our heartbeats, the day and night, the seasons, lovemaking, walking and running, the cadences of speech etc. A travesty that all this beauty is reduced to bloody doof doof and we lame robots just take it. Ditto gymnasiums.

It's Antipodean Idealistic Rage Day!

One can dream, can't one. How I wish live music, with real people only, was as plentiful as before the digital age.
 
Keys players are the danger once they get control over drum modules. It sure is a computer based skill these days - I was fine with the old TR707 but I can't get it together with the software based ones. I seem to be getting dumber with age.

There's tons of solo performers (apart from DJs) out there with drum machines now. People just swallow it up. Society feeds us plastic shit and we just swallow it up like greedy babies - no discernment, no ideals. What SHOULD be happening is that the second the performer turns on the drum machine he or she is dealt with a torrent of abuse from the audience ("Take your stinkin' machines away!"). Then the crowd would walk out en masse, declaring to the bar owner that they won't swallow lame synthetic rhythms any more.

The crowd would make clear that they won't return until they hear real flesh and blood beats that honour the essential rhythms of life and the natural world - our breathing, our heartbeats, the day and night, the seasons, lovemaking, walking and running, the cadences of speech etc. A travesty that all this beauty is reduced to bloody doof doof and we lame robots just take it. Ditto gymnasiums.

It's Antipodean Idealistic Rage Day!

Is it still like that in your part of the world? I swear alot of people have gotten away from that here in my neck of Los Angeles anyway. But then again, V-Drums are quite popular here, but at least there's someone playing drum sounds, I guess. I remember in the 80s, people congratulating people doing one-man-band acts, and nowadays they're most likely to be saying, "Where's the band?". Maybe that time is coming down in Oz too? I hope so.

I think in the US - most people are over the "I can do it all with my computer and modules" business and realize that it is geared towards making demos or doing C-movie soundtracks with no budget. I think the industry has realized that yes, electronics have their place, but they'll take people any day of the week if there's a budget for it ;)
 
Not at all mate. I've woken up in a particularly chipper mood this morning and thought what a fabulous opportunity to stir the pot and have a giggle at the same time. Whilst I stand behind every word and I reckon we could do with discussing the context more often than we do, there is definitely more bark than bite to that rant. I certainly get your orginal intention, but I did see the thread evolving towards the one sided again and took the opportunity to steamroll into the mix and make a little bit of noise. It's been far too quiet Downunder, so thought I'd shake the tree a bit and see what falls out. :)

I had this feeling that's where you were going. I'm good ;)
 
Is it still like that in your part of the world? I swear alot of people have gotten away from that here in my neck of Los Angeles anyway. But then again, V-Drums are quite popular here, but at least there's someone playing drum sounds, I guess. I remember in the 80s, people congratulating people doing one-man-band acts, and nowadays they're most likely to be saying, "Where's the band?". Maybe that time is coming down in Oz too? I hope so.

I think in the US - most people are over the "I can do it all with my computer and modules" business and realize that it is geared towards making demos or doing C-movie soundtracks with no budget. I think the industry has realized that yes, electronics have their place, but they'll take people any day of the week if there's a budget for it ;)

Yep, we have soloists playing background music and the DJs doing the dance stuff. Sometimes both. A few weeks ago I had dinner at a Persian restaurant. The DJ played background music while people were eating and then played music for the belly dancer and shifted to doof doof later in the evening. Admittedly, he was a talented DJ and a band capable of covering all that would cost far more to hire, although it would be 100% better
 
Yep, we have soloists playing background music and the DJs doing the dance stuff. Sometimes both. A few weeks ago I had dinner at a Persian restaurant. The DJ played background music while people were eating and then played music for the belly dancer and shifted to doof doof later in the evening. Admittedly, he was a talented DJ and a band capable of covering all that would cost far more to hire, although it would be 100% better

Yeah, it is a shame that $$$ determines what you get. But I guess on the bright side, you didn't have to pay four times as much for your dinner, eh?
 
Yeah, it is a shame that $$$ determines what you get. But I guess on the bright side, you didn't have to pay four times as much for your dinner, eh?

It was way overpriced as it was, and not all that nice either! Space wasn't the issue either - the DJ and his gear occupied a stage and had a footprint as big as my band when playing unplugged. I think it's getting to the point where real bands are a bit old fashioned ... people might dance to it but they'd rather the real thing (doof doof).

As for your initial point (before the Aussie invasion), I see my relentless backbeating as a combination of technical limitations and a failure of imagination. Steve Gadd and the like always manage to add flavour but it still feels like a straight, steady beat. I find that adding nuance based on the moment is the key to staying sane when playing straight up, but only if there's minimal risk to the song flow. It's something I'm still trying to learn - getting the right balance.
 
I was suprised not to see any four on the floor? Thought with all the show/dance action it would be that all night.
 
I was suprised not to see any four on the floor? Thought with all the show/dance action it would be that all night.

Isn't that the first bass drum variation he wrote down?

When I play at church, I feel robotic and predictable, but that's exactly what the people want to hear. Every time we rehearse a new piece of music, I always lay down the simplest beat possible and listen to the band. If I hear room for accents, fills, or variations, I do them. Sometimes I'll play the same 2 beats for all the songs we do. Nobody seems to care or notice.

Church drumming has made me a more reliable timekeeper and helped me develop dynamic control. Sure, it feels sterile sometimes, but it certainly doesn't sound bad! Great post Bo, it made me feel better about what I do.
 
I was suprised not to see any four on the floor? Thought with all the show/dance action it would be that all night.

Yep - that would be my first bass drum 'variation' written below the groove ;)

To be honest, playing a 26" bass drum with regular emperor heads front and back with just felt strips for muffling, four-on-the-floor comes out really heavy and is a bit much. I did use it, but sparingly (alot of this depends on the room too - it was a fairly small place and the patrons are right on top of us, a quiet four-on-the-floor worked, though).

I actually enjoy playing like this. Maybe it's my age, maybe I'm just happy to have a gig at all, but in the last fifteen years or so, I've not really complained about 'not getting to show my stuff'. Maybe singing and drumming has something to do with that, maybe it makes me more aware of the big picture of the songs we're doing, but if a gig goes by and I didn't get to do the ending solo to Led Zeppelin's Rock and Roll, I'm not gonna lose any sleep ;)

Perhaps that's the lesson here - we all do the money beat thinking that "no one else is and they get to have all the fun", but in reality, its one of the most important things we do, and it's ok ;)
 
I used to play in a country band in the mid 90's and we used to play everything really fast and loud and loose, and were quite popular for a local bar band. I came from an 80's hair metal background, so really liked doing lots of big tom fills, stick twirling, showy stuff.

One day I was fighting the flu and had no sleep the night before, and could barely sit up straight. Fought through the gig, just kept straight time, no embellishments, hardly a drum roll to be seen. I got more compliments for my playing that night from audience members than I'd ever had before. It was a real eye opener. From that day on, I really tried to lock in that 2 and 4, so it was a steady, relentless assault.

Funny thing, I did a gig a few weeks ago, and a bass player buddy of mine was out to see us.
He told me after - " for the first while you were a drummer, then after the first set, you turned into a drum machine." I took it as a compliment, but he really didn't mean it as such. Funny, it's the opposite of what I'd expect from a bass player. Straight time should make his life easier.
 
That's why I play rock n roll. Doing that crap all the time would make playing the drums a complete bore. A song or two here and there is fine, but all night? No thanks, not if it's a hobby.

The garage band I jam with plays a lot of shuffle beat songs. It's amazing how these guitar players just love playing songs with the same beat over and over. And if I do something a little different with the beat, they will let me know how they want the beat to sound. I'm thinking to myself, "Oh, so what you're saying is that you want that same shuffle beat that I did for the last FOUR freakin' songs"? Ya, it gets dull, so I move around the accents and nuances for variation and just try to enjoy the music because they got some great original music in this band. It happens in the other band too where we get locked into the same beats over and over. That's when I need to kick in my creative genius and stir it up a bit to get them going in a different direction. Playing covers is one thing, but I would never want to get locked into these beats in an original project for the most part. The garage band is more folky type music though, so it needs simpler beats. I like Ringo's approach to simplicity in beats, so sometimes I try to emulate him in a way.
 
Shuffle beats are easy to vary though. You could shuffle the kick, the snare, the bronze, you can shuffle combinations of 2 or more pieces. With a money beat, there's not as much variation to employ. But I do agree that rhythms need to change it up every so many songs.
 
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