Time keepers or creative drummers

Interesting topic. I have often felt both ways in this conversation. Sometimes true drumming seems like a departure from straight beats, then again we are the heartbeat of the band, too, and we can't forget we are the foundation where it all should start from. I like the way The Doors' John Denmore puts it: "I play the drums.....The drum was the first f'ing instrument. The reason people move and dance is that they're trying to get back to that heartbeat. It's the heartbeat you hear in the womb that started the whole deal. An orchestra, a four-piece rock band, whatever it is, they're trying to get back to that heartbeat." I think those are some of the wisest words to ever justify playing the drums.

But I agree, listening to guys like Watts can be boring as a drummer. OTOH, listening to modern groups like Dragonforce can very appealing to our ears, but maybe not to others. As drummers can you imagine a lead guitar player soloing throughout every song and never playing chords? Even Hendrix never did that, and if he had, nobody would have particularly liked it except the guitar players. Or Louis Johnson beating his Bass into oblivion from intro to extro? Only bass players could probably appreciate that, too. Also, as far as the Stones are concerned, I don't think that Richards or Wyman share any more respect from the guitar and bass crowd than we give ole Watts around here. But they all come up with catchy rythms with nice melodies that sell records, even with the void of musical talent that the Stones are collectively notorious for.

Sometimes I think the modern drumset has gotten stale. Think about it. Has the set really changed much since the 1930's? And where did the idea of the snare come from? Does everybody really like the snare? Maybe we ought to think of coming up with a new sound and a new rythm as drummers. I used to love the sound of one of Neal Peart's drums on his solos - it sounded like a crack of thunder. I'm sure it was an electric trigger, but imagine an acoustic drum that could sound like that!
 
With all due respect i can see somewhat where you're coming from. But wheather you're playing polyrythmic patterns or four on the floor without a single fill, i believe you will gain much respect from any true musician if you approach that song in the right manner. There's a time and a place for it all , and some of the best fills i ever heard were the ones that were'nt played at all. I have respect for all drummers as long as they play from the heart including you.

I agree that what matters most is that the playing fit the song. It's bad to overplay or underplay if it goes counter to what the song requires. I often have to play simple beats, and sometimes complex ones. I just like listening to drummers who are at the edge, playing the complex stuff, at least when the music and their bandmates give them permission. I get the most intense fulfillment musically when I am pushing the technical limits of what I am able to accomplish. If I can play like that in one out of ten songs then I'm happy.

Also, I notice a lot of people dissing Charlie Watts. I'm not arguing with any of that, but in my opinion, Ringo Starr is in the same league: Someone who just played minimally, unimaginatively and kept a low profile in every way possible, reinforcing the lower status of the drummer. Yet everyone who has gotten within three feet of a drum set cites Ringo as an influence and he gets heaps of respect, while Watts is called out as a slacker.

One can't argue with the success of the most successful rock band in history, but I have to wonder what the Beatles could have sounded like with a truly over-the-top drummer who, of course, played tastefully to fit the music, that's a given.
 
IOne can't argue with the success of the most successful rock band in history, but I have to wonder what the Beatles could have sounded like with a truly over-the-top drummer who, of course, played tastefully to fit the music, that's a given.

But then, on the other hand, listen to these songs, and ask yourself : what can be added to these drum parts that would really improve the songs ? Try and record it, and listen back afterwards...
 
I'm sorry, but I think The Keith Moon's attitude is terrible.

I agree that just straight time keeping can be boring, but when you advocate the drummer effectively soloing along to the music, and just letting lose with chops the whole time, I think you're going about the solution in the wrong direction. Especially when you said you didn't care about melody.

I used to think that way, back when I was in high school. I ate up the fills of Keith Moon, Mitch Mitchell, and Rush (or tried to anyway) and would throw them in all the time. My bass drum and snare would run all over the measure. But when I went to play with people, no one wanted to play with me. And that's because your chops do not matter at all if you lack feel. Because without feel, even the coolest fill will sound like crap.

But then, I went to college, and I started playing with musicians more regularly. I joined a jazz band. I started taking music theory classes. And most importantly I started REALLY listening to music. When I was younger I would tune out the other instruments to focus on the drums, but now, began to listen to the drums as just one splash of color making up the whole canvas. And when I was playing, of course I listened to myself, but I only listened to myself in relationship to others: how could I best compliment the melody, does the soloist want me to lay back or drive ahead, . Nothing has improved my playing more.

I think you need to be creative in your playing. But that doesn't mean every song should be a chops fest. Look at "Billy Jean" by Michael Jackson. The beat is INCREDIBLY simple, but it fits the song absolutely perfectly. And every once in a while the drummer throws in these little splashes of color. They're rarely more than a flam here or a displaced bass drum there, but each of them adds immeasurably to the song. That's because the drummer recognized that the song didn't need much more than a simple beat to really groove (And it's one of the grooviest songs out there). He also realized that he was making a musical statement just by playing so simply and repetitively, and because of this statement, it made his rare augmentations stand out much more and say so much more about the music than they would have if he had been playing it all the time.

For me, it's the little things like that that make a song great. Anyone can make a big sextuplet roll around the toms. But only the greats know when to lay back, when that ghost note will be most effective, when to add that open hi-hat or extra kick, and even when to lay out completely. That is the mark of a great drummer.

Even Keith Moon himself knew when to lay back. Look at "Baba O'Reilly." 90% of the time he's playing quite a simple pattern. It's no solo all over the place here. And that's because Townshend's keyboards were taking up so much rhythmic space there was little need for the wild man stuff he was known for. And so, when he comes in at 2:31 with his fill, it really grabs your attention like nothing else has in the entire song. It's a simple fill, but it absolutely nails the song perfectly. Even Keith knew when to lay back and listen.
 
And where did the idea of the snare come from? Does everybody really like the snare? Maybe we ought to think of coming up with a new sound and a new rythm as drummers. I used to love the sound of one of Neal Peart's drums on his solos - it sounded like a crack of thunder. I'm sure it was an electric trigger, but imagine an acoustic drum that could sound like that!

My thoughts as well, I think Van Halen 1984 has a different sound which I dig.

awesometastic, ur posting makes sense as well though, thanks friend... however, regarding Billy Jaen, we heard only one version and we think it is the best. If the drummer had some chops and did something creative , and if that was the only version available (or produced) our point of view might have been different.
Thats why i would think... a wild idea..... some songs should be produced with two drum versions...... we listeners have to right to hear different snare versions , dont u think?
I know we should listen to the whole song, however.... imagine the whole song with a diff. snare pattern! (Guitarists may say with a diff. guitar riff)
 
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Phil Rudd (AC/DC) says himself, Cliff Williams and Malcolm are locked in the rhythm section to get a perfect Rhythm section. This is the case for all AC/DC songs. Can they think beyond that? they should try to let it loose every now and then to make it somewhat different. He says he never use a click trck. well... he is the click track... almost every AC/DC drummer is a click track drummer.


I think the universal thinking of the rhythm section should change.
 
Phil Rudd (AC/DC) says himself, Cliff Williams and Malcolm are locked in the rhythm section to get a perfect Rhythm section. This is the case for all AC/DC songs. Can they think beyond that? they should try to let it loose every now and then to make it somewhat different. He says he never use a click trck. well... he is the click track... almost every AC/DC drummer is a click track drummer.


I think the universal thinking of the rhythm section should change.

In what way? How would you improve upon these tracks? What creative beat would you use? Where would you put your fills? It would be cool if you could make a recording so we know what you mean.
 
My thoughts as well, I think Van Halen 1984 has a different sound which I dig.

awesometastic, ur posting makes sense as well though, thanks friend... however, regarding Billy Jaen, we heard only one version and we think it is the best. If the drummer had some chops and did something creative , and if that was the only version available (or produced) our point of view might have been different.
Thats why i would think... a wild idea..... some songs should be produced with two drum versions...... we listeners have to right to hear different snare versions , dont u think?
I know we should listen to the whole song, however.... imagine the whole song with a diff. snare pattern! (Guitarists may say with a diff. guitar riff)
I really think you should work as a studio intern, that way you can hear all the songs you want with different tracks and different drum or snare sounds. We as listeners only have the right to either like or dislike a song, to buy or not to buy. I would love to see some posted tracks of your playing because in all honesty , to me , you seem a little out of touch. Your logic is not rational at times and is borderline absurd. If you post something we can listen to and understand then i'll eat my words.
 
Honestly I am just an entry level guy with a awkward attitude towards drumming. I own a crappy set as well. I salute all of you, honestly.... while getting out some wild ideas that been brewing in my mind.

thanks folks.


I would love to work as a studio intern to be exposed to different drum patterns or to see who is really in charge in terms of the drums....., the band leader or the producer or the drummer himself.

thanks again.
 
Honestly I am just an entry level guy with a awkward attitude towards drumming. I own a crappy set as well. I salute all of you, honestly.... while getting out some wild ideas that been brewing in my mind.

thanks folks.


I would love to work as a studio intern to be exposed to different drum patterns or to see who is really in charge in terms of the drums....., the band leader or the producer or the drummer himself.

thanks again.

I believe who is in charge of the drumming creativity depends a lot on the artist recording, the drummer in question, and the producer in question. For example, drummers like Gavin Harrison of Porcupine Tree have incredible creative freedom. Steve Gadd may be given a lot of freedom when recording with Paul Simon, but perhaps would be more reigned in when recording with say James Taylor. The drummer for the latest pop phenomenon is probably told most of what to do by a producer.

So your answer is it depends.
 
Phil Rudd (AC/DC) says himself, Cliff Williams and Malcolm are locked in the rhythm section to get a perfect Rhythm section. This is the case for all AC/DC songs. Can they think beyond that? they should try to let it loose every now and then to make it somewhat different. He says he never use a click trck. well... he is the click track... almost every AC/DC drummer is a click track drummer.


I think the universal thinking of the rhythm section should change.

Not universally. For some groups, like AC/DC, the drummer plays exactly what is called for. He's just a human metronome. If he played any more, it would be out of place. I'm sure they can think and play beyond that, but for certain genres, they shouldn't. Ringo Starr isn't much beyond this level and the music of the Beatles called for something more.

It is very, very rare to hear a drummer overplay but fairly common for them to underplay. I think that's because the producer and band leaders dictate how the drummer should sound. That's just our lot in life as drummers. Most people like the concept of a drummer more than the reality of a drummer.
 
In what way? How would you improve upon these tracks? What creative beat would you use? Where would you put your fills? It would be cool if you could make a recording so we know what you mean.

I agree. The Keith Moon should post his rendition of these songs since the versions done by the original artists obviously are not good enough. hahahaha
 
Not universally. For some groups, like AC/DC, the drummer plays exactly what is called for. He's just a human metronome. If he played any more, it would be out of place. I'm sure they can think and play beyond that, but for certain genres, they shouldn't. Ringo Starr isn't much beyond this level and the music of the Beatles called for something more.

It is very, very rare to hear a drummer overplay but fairly common for them to underplay. I think that's because the producer and band leaders dictate how the drummer should sound. That's just our lot in life as drummers. Most people like the concept of a drummer more than the reality of a drummer.

Wait really? The Beatles required more complicated playing than Ringo delivered? Where? I think you are profoundly mistaken. Ringo played simply, but also had a lot of subtle complexities. Listen to the fills on "A Day in the Life" or "Strawberry Fields." He was also particularly adept at coming up with creative and unusual rock beats like "Come Together," "You Won't See Me," or "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" that always fit the song perfectly.

I am really tired of Ringo hate. He is criminally underrated. I would love to be as good a drummer as Ringo.

How would you improve the drumming on Beatles tracks?
 
Wait really? The Beatles required more complicated playing than Ringo delivered? Where? I think you are profoundly mistaken. Ringo played simply, but also had a lot of subtle complexities. Listen to the fills on "A Day in the Life" or "Strawberry Fields." He was also particularly adept at coming up with creative and unusual rock beats like "Come Together," "You Won't See Me," or "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" that always fit the song perfectly.

I am really tired of Ringo hate. He is criminally underrated. I would love to be as good a drummer as Ringo.

How would you improve the drumming on Beatles tracks?

I dare to make a peep that he really isn't one of the greatest drummers the world has ever known, and some people think Ringo is "criminally underrated."

I don't hate Ringo, but I think he is habitually overrated. Back in the real world, everybody who has tapped a drum, including my cat, names him as an influence, so he's held in very very high esteem among drummers. In my opinion, for what it's worth, he's held in higher esteem that what he deserves among drummers. Google the phrase "the Ringo Starr of" to see what everyone else thinks about him.

I think the drumming on the Beatles tracks could have been improved with someone playing with more bang, sizzle and pop. Most of the time, Ringo just seems to play the bare minimum and not very imaginatively, much like Charlie Watts, who also had a very subsidiary role in his band. That's just the impression I get from listening to Beatles music played year-round in public places, much like Christmas music is played during the holidays. I don't have the time or inclination to justify my opinion to you by citing albums, songs, verses and measures, along with transcripted and recorded outtakes.

Like I've said before, it's hard to argue with the most successful group in Western rock music, but you did ask for what I'd do to improve things in my view. More verve, more jump and - I say this at risk to my personal safety - more display of chops. Even a little tiny bit.
 
rock beats like "Come Together," "You Won't See Me," or "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" that always fit the song perfectly.

I agree but.......... i never get to hear any other version though! I could change my mind.
 
Let's face it, though: nine times out of ten you're going to get hired to keep time, not to dazzle anyone with innovative over-the-top drumming. It's fine to talk about a few famous rock bands, but how many of you are going to be in the next-big-thing band? Maybe one out of all the members of this forum. The rest are either going to have to do exactly what the gig calls for, and do it very well, or play however you want to play and work in an office.
Edit: that is not to say that there's anything at all wrong with working in an office.
 
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