Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

My take on the "girl" thing is that while relatively trivial in itself, it has the potential to be the tip of an iceberg.

It's an example of the casual everyday sexism that is so ubiquitous it's barely even noticeable.

But when it's pointed out to people, some (not all and maybe not even many) will say "Oh I didn't realise, but I do now", and that causes them to examine their perceptions and language a little more.

So the next time they use a word other than "girl", when "girl" might have been expected, it might cause their audience to wonder why they didn't use it, and to examine their own perceptions and language a little more.

This is subtle stuff but "insidious filtering" like this can work for positive ends as I have described. It works jolly well for negative ends, certainly. I admit that I'm often not very subtle, which fault probably does more harm than good.

Absolutely, Madge, I was going to say iceberg as well!

Also, there's a difference between a man calling a woman a "girl" and a woman self-identifying herself with that term.

I see it somewhat differently. I view equality as justice. I would also argue that it's men who have fought, and succeeded, to contain women.

Again, totally agreed.

I think, when talking about "Political Correctness", most in the US who complain about "PC" stuff are just complaining that they don't get to use offensive/outdated terms. It just doesn't seem like an issue to me in that sort of usage- however, when used to discuss a particular smarmy, white-toast manner of speaking, I can understand its negative connotation.
 
A few months ago, we had put out an ad on Craigslist looking for a lead guitarist. I had one guy call me who was all anxious to audition until he found out I was the lead singer. Now, keep in mind, he had never heard me sing so it had nothing to do with my singing ability. His response was "I can't be in a band with a female." This wasn't some kid but a 60 year old man who had been playing for years. At least he let us know that before getting too involved but still... Really makes me wonder what experiences, life or band, that he had had that gave him that attitude.
 
Absolutely agree 100% about relevance and context, but seeing it differently :)

Re "male nurse" - if we say "teacher", "lawyer" or "mortgage adviser", without any gender-specific prefix, why can't we just say "nurse"? Unless there is a particular reason why the person's gender may be relevant, and of course there are times when it may, I don't understand why it should be mentioned. We don't refer to ethnicity, colour, religion or sexual orientation as a matter of course.

Actually, we do in America. We have African-Americans, Asian-Americans, Mexican-Americans, Jewish-Americans, etc. They are all Americans.
 
Thanks KIS. I'm sure you're right. It's not all men, obviously. Far from it, the majority in the bands I've been in have been fine. But you only need one to spoil the atmosphere (for me) and there are occasions when the "good guys" will think it's hilarious - or just not understand how disheartening it all is (why should they?) - and join in.

I think I'm the wrong age as well as the wrong gender! My age is another thing I don't generally think about. But all the bands I've been in were "mature" or mixed age group bands where there are men in their 50s and 60s and they are, frankly, the worst. I grew up in the 60s and started my career in the 70s when attitudes to women were very different, and it seems that old attitudes die hard. I think (generalising) younger men who grew up in more enlightened times are more ... well, enlightened, but they don't seem to want grandma behind the drum kit (not that I blame them for that).

I don't blame anyone really. It's just the way it is. I already miss playing in a band. I'm sure I'll try again soon. Full of hope and enthusiasm, as always !
 
I think, when talking about "Political Correctness", most in the US who complain about "PC" stuff are just complaining that they don't get to use offensive/outdated terms. It just doesn't seem like an issue to me in that sort of usage- however, when used to discuss a particular smarmy, white-toast manner of speaking, I can understand its negative connotation.

And back atcha, porter: totally agreed. Many, many of the people I know who describe themselves as "not very PC" are in fact the most likely to think, speak and act in a way that is egalitarian. The term has certainly acquired a pejorative connotation, and that may well be because of the dinosaurs who refuse to lift their mindset out of the bottom of the pond.

Now, keep in mind, he had never heard me sing so it had nothing to do with my singing ability. His response was "I can't be in a band with a female."

How did that make you feel, Mary? Were you shocked, or just slightly surprised?

Actually, we do in America. We have African-Americans, Asian-Americans, Mexican-Americans, Jewish-Americans, etc. They are all Americans.

I meant ethnicity in conjunction with a profession, such as "Welsh quantity surveyor", which to me is pretty much equivalent to "male nurse". Could be relevant; most likely not to be.

But you only need one to spoil the atmosphere (for me) and there are occasions when the "good guys" will think it's hilarious - or just not understand how disheartening it all is (why should they?) - and join in.

It's true. I'm astonished how badly I was affected by what happened to me: I've always liked to think that crap would bounce off me and I wouldn't give a damn, but that was far from the case. It shook me to the core.

I haven't had the age thing, except in a positive way: my (grown-up) daughters' friends think it's well cool to have a mum who plays drums - and to be fair to them, so do my daughters - and no less a drummer than Michèle Drees herself told me she admired me for taking up drumming so relatively late in life.

My band are great, Daisy. There are three feisty women and two men who are both married to feisty women. I can hardly bear to imagine how much it would hurt - and piss me off - if any of them behaved in such a way as to make me feel that I didn't want to be with them any more. I really really hope you find some great musicians who aren't total dipsticks.
 
I meant ethnicity in conjunction with a profession, such as "Welsh quantity surveyor", which to me is pretty much equivalent to "male nurse". Could be relevant; most likely not to be.

Welsh Male Voice Choir? :)

Here in Sydney we have the Manly Ladies Swimming Club.

As to the suggestion that only girls can say girls...what utter rot! I get that members of groups can 'claim' words as a way of defusing them, and in that case you'd better be a member of the group before using the term, but 'girl' is not such a word. It comes back to context and intent, and it's usually pretty darn' clear.

If I ask my wife and sister in law "What are you girls up to?" you'd be drawing a long bow to find something derogatory in the question.
 
The entire 'girl' thing is purely contextual. Girl used to refer to young male and female alike. Then it referred to females who were not of sexual maturity. I tend to use it to describe females that are so young I have no sexual interest in them whatsoever (under 30), and who are demonstrably not deserving of the word 'woman'. I tend to use it in a direct tongue-and-cheek manner, and certainly not casually.

Two neat words I want to throw out there are "Lady" and "Belle".

Lady (for us unknowing americans) implies social privilege. We generally don't have that any more.

Belle implies a romanticized ideal that, much like lady, doesn't really exist any more.
 
It's true that bar band scene is a step behind mainstream society - bar bands have long worked amongst society's underbelly. It's the roughest part of the music industry and naturally male-dominated, and contains a higher-than-usual percentage of meat-heads.

At its meanest you're lugging heavy gear into a dingy bar smelling of beer, urine and testosterone after midnight to play to drunks, stoners, junkies, crims, bikers, sex workers, etc. The rest of the music scene - sessions, classical, show bands, stage shows, restaurants etc - is more mixed and genteel.

There was a Modern Drummer article many years ago, an interview with a session percussionist (whose name I wish I could remember) and she was asked if she'd experienced sexism in the industry.

She said that if she was being treated poorly then she always assumed that the problem was her playing. So she would practice harder. She figured that, even if a dissing was based on sexism, if it spurred her to be a better player then she couldn't lose.

It's a lesson I never forgot and one I have applied to work as well as play. As things turned out, I never managed to be beyond reproach on drums but have been lucky to play in bands with mostly nice people :)

I'm fine with "girl" and well-meaning old school endearments. It's just naivete and old school chivalry; they don't mean to be patronising. But it's true that the bar scene is behind the times. As a woman in the scene you either choose your battles or feel pissed off all the time. As with the corporate scene, the bar band circuit is changing, but more slowly.
 
If I ask my wife and sister in law "What are you girls up to?" you'd be drawing a long bow to find something derogatory in the question.

Would you use the word to women who weren't family?
 
I find myself in an unusual situation. I have a female lead singer. Nobody cares that she is female, but she seems to care that the rest of the band are male. To her, we have to do as she says, she gets time off all she wants etc, but if we want to take time off or do something we get a bollocking. She still does solo gigs but when we turned around and said we want to do a black keys style duo for when she cant do it, she pretty much banned us from it. She is very tough.

On my stance on femenism, im a femenist. I believe in equality, but i think that extends to everything. I know for some stupid reason that some believe men cant be raped by women, they can. And i also believe if a woman hits a man, the man fully has the right to hit the woman. This whole "a man is stronger and a woman is frailer so he still shouldnt punch her" is contradicting to the femenists whole play. I know women that are stronger than me, its lifestyle choice nothing more. Sorry if ANY offense was made during this post, im very pro women as anyone who has spent 5 minutes with me and sophie would know.
 
I find myself in an unusual situation. I have a female lead singer. Nobody cares that she is female, but she seems to care that the rest of the band are male. To her, we have to do as she says, she gets time off all she wants etc, but if we want to take time off or do something we get a bollocking. She still does solo gigs but when we turned around and said we want to do a black keys style duo for when she cant do it, she pretty much banned us from it. She is very tough.

Sounds like any prima donna singer. Although the term has gender connotations at its root it can certainly apply to either men or women. I know that I have worked with quite a few guys that meet that profile...
 
Remember the TV show called Golden Girls? Would it have as successful if they had called it Golden Ladies?

That was back in the 80's. You've made my case for me ;)
 
Nah Bermuda I was just awestruck he would ask me such a question. He actually has a family pre-arranged marriage so he had no say in his choice of wife. Which I didn't realize that was still common. Since that time I had several students who also had pre-arranged marriages. Gee, I didn't mean to imply a "racial" overtone-just a cultural one. Guess just remembering the odd conversation and his view from another culture. But I see how it sounds that way. Besides I'm a biological scientist there is no thing as "race" only gene pools which don't associate with race nor skin tones.

I think that your friend may be an exception. i've worked with several indians whose wives were doctors or engineers. More often than not the wives were smarter than the husbands. The whole pre-arranged marriage thing is ridiculous.
 
This thread has reminded me of my first reaction to a particularly Western United States term, "gals." My wife at the time interviewed for a job, and after the interview we were talking informally and I remember the manager saying something about "the gals" doing this or that. I kind of bristled, because it didn't sound very professional to me. Turns out, that usage doesn't mean a thing out here, and isn't considered derogatory or demeaning at all.

It taught me to be a little more tolerant, and listen to what people mean rather than the words they use.
 
This thread has reminded me of my first reaction to a particularly Western United States term, "gals." My wife at the time interviewed for a job, and after the interview we were talking informally and I remember the manager saying something about "the gals" doing this or that. I kind of bristled, because it didn't sound very professional to me. Turns out, that usage doesn't mean a thing out here, and isn't considered derogatory or demeaning at all.

It taught me to be a little more tolerant, and listen to what people mean rather than the words they use.

Spot on. The older I get the more I realise that life realy is too short to sweat much about what others say, or think. Control the controlable, as my old athletics coach used to say.

Some people are simply ignoranr or arrogant, so I avoid them when posible and life is better for doing that. I cant change them and I wont waste my time and energy trying. There is nowt as queer as folk. (No offence intended)
 
The older I get the more I realise that life realy is too short to sweat much about what others say, or think. Control the controlable, as my old athletics coach used to say.

I cant change them and I wont waste my time and energy trying.

Just suppose, right, that Martin Luther King hadn't sweated about what others said or thought, and that he had considered it a waste of time and energy trying?

God knows, the world isn't perfect but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make it as good as it can be. For me, that means the small stuff as well as the big.
 
Just suppose, right, that Martin Luther King hadn't sweated about what others said or thought, and that he had considered it a waste of time and energy trying?

God knows, the world isn't perfect but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make it as good as it can be. For me, that means the small stuff as well as the big.

MLK's fight was with outright racism - controls on who could sit where in the bus.

It wasn't with people who expressed friendly thoughts in not quite the right terms.
 
How did that make you feel, Mary? Were you shocked, or just slightly surprised?

.

Shocked, mostly because of his choice of words...not that he preferred not to play in a band with a female, but that he couldn't. I understand that some people don't want to pky in a female fronted band because they don't want to do female singer songs. Although, truth be told, I sing more traditional male leads than I do female anyways. He was just so adamant. It was a little weird.
 
Back
Top