Is drumming becoming to linear and mathematic?

wow! generally you seem more open minded than "there can be no argument"
that's kind of dismissive of any other view even though there were some good points brought up in the thread

Yes, and it totally ignores the larger world of rhythm beyond the relatively small confines of western music. Try telling the Indians that their rhythms are too complex. They'll laugh behind your back and think you nothing more than a primitive.

Knowing Pol, the tongue was probably firmly in cheek.
 
wow! generally you seem more open minded than "there can be no argument"
that's kind of dismissive of any other view even though there were some good points brought up in the thread

I see your point, Permanoob but the fact is the music has very obviously tending towards more mechanisation. For a start, we didn't have the technology; it's a no-brainer. Obviously not all music is at the bleeding edge but that's the tendency. I'm not being dismissive, but it's just what is. Yes, there is a middle ground between the traditional African approach and click-tracked, quantised tracks.

The changes are mostly not to my taste even though I enjoy some click-tracked music and techno etc. That's typical of generational changes - but I didn't say the changes are bad. I also enjoy African music by people who have never used metronomes. I personally use a metronome for practice because I'm not enough of a natural to get away with not doing that but I know that a lot of good music can be achieved with a totally organic approach.

I don't believe in black/white dichotomies.

PS. Nah Wy, tongue was not in cheek this time. It was a Western-centric post. Do Indians playing traditional music use click tracks? Nup, they're just bloody good.
 
PS. Nah Wy, tongue was not in cheek this time. It was a Western-centric post. Do Indians playing traditional music use click tracks? Nup, they're just bloody good.

I am sure some do. Those Bollywood film soundtracks sound to me like they must use clicks.
 
We have come a long way from this:

yarts_traditional-grip.jpg


To this:

att00028.jpg




Life seems so much simpler in the days of traditional grip.
 
This metronome thing, I don't know. Sometimes that seems to me to be something that sooner or later you're going to have to be weaned from, you know?

To be honest, I never in my life practiced with a metronome. You know what happened the first time I encountered a click track at a recording session? Nothing, that's what. I just played to the click track. Piece of cake!

Do I have good time because I'm a drummer, or am I a drummer because I have good time? Who knows? But I am convinced that being very sensitive to the pulse of the music is something that is crucial to being a drummer and that it's developed by playing and playing and playing some more until it's just a part of you. And I'm also convinced that I would have been a lousy scientist or mathematician.
 
I'm not entirely sure you do

... "mechanistic" isn't even what mathematics is about. That's a real real real narrow view of mathematics

various forms of automata have been around a long long time , the technology of the clavier led to relatively static intonation (which string players, for instance call "the tyrrany of the clavier")

but it isn't just the automation or other technology that can be subject to discrete math (only one type of math)

I mean the pythagoreans just plain swept the syntonic coma under the rug (and that's with a monochord!!)

Harmony even used to be frowned on by the Catholic church as a form of virtuosity (which was seen as vanity)

I see your point, Permanoob ... now :)

I stand corrected, yes, I was taking a narrow view. I still feel the narrow aspect I focused on is relevant to the topic, if overstated. Thing is, the mathematical approach strikes me as being in the middle, as in those with a strong mathematical approach will usually achieve more musically than someone who hasn't mastered it, apart from the occasional inspired renegade like Keith Moon. But at the other end the masters are those who control the mathematical aspect and then transcend it to focus on the lyrical aspects. Ideally, most of us will work on both angles.

Interesting post in the context of all this, Jay.

And an interesting comment about harmony, PN. The church was pretty focused on the statements that music made, like their declaration that the tritone was the devli's interval. Now they just worry about lyrics.

PS. Wy, I am NOT a problem! :)
 
relevant sure - just not definitive (as in "there is no argument") - that's what I was commenting on, the "there is no argument" -- the closing of the topic

and in some ways, the limits we are talking about in that is the narrowness aspect
narrow emotional processes, narrow philosophical views, narrow use of the FUX rules.

I think there's a tendency in culture to poo-poo math with "math" and "creative" or "artistic" being somehow anithetical -- I (YMMV) often see this in peeps whose exposure to math isn't that deep )or wide (just like poeple who think drumming is banging and since a lot of it isn't pitch definite it must be somehow "easier")


I can see what wy was saying as well (about context) even the examples don't represent all of "music" , , not even all of western music -- selected samples can have confirmation bias inbuilt

I give in! I give in! lol

I agree that math and lyricism don't have to be antithetical, but they certainly can be.
 
i think all great drummers of any kind have a sense of time and numbered rhythms, even
if the time changes and the rhythms are odd and always evolving, you still know time and the mathematical side to it, its unavoidable in a way don't you think??

even if you cant read and have never taken any for of training you still have your own
internal definitions, take repetition for example, most drummers even the self taught ones
know how to repeat a beat, that is a form of mathematic numbering, and even if you cant
tell the difference between on sheet music between 8th and 16th notes, if you can play
them then you must have a personal under standing of 2 times for 8th and 4 times for 16th
if u use them on your own,

my question for every one is ,with out time and mathematics how would you play the drums???
 
Pardon the long reply, but I have a few comments on some of the OPs statements.

A. The OP is right that humans "have the tendency to try and package everything into neat little boxes" - In a sense, that's exactly what music is. One of the more popular theories about music is that it is ways of organizing sounds. From that, a popular theory for rhythm in music is that it "describes the pattern of events in time." (Handbook of Acoustic Ecology 1999). This leads to yet another theory that there is a wide range of rhythmic types, from "metric" (which I think the OP refers to as "mathematical") to "non-metric" (which I think the OP considers "creative"). So given these theories, some musics can be observed as organized to represent the "organic" rhythms of "nature". Other musics are organized to mimic the precision of machines. Still other musics are not representative of anything physical, and are instead abstract or conceptual. But whatever the objective, music is an attempt to organize sounds, whether melodically, harmonically, or rhythmically. The packaging of the box may not always be neat, but it is still a box.

B. "Is music becoming too mathematical?" - Using the concept of "metric" rhythm, which "involves the subdivision of the measure into equal units marked by a pulse called the beat" (Handbook of Acoustic Ecology again) I can safely state the following.
1) There are types of music that value metric rhythmic consistency and precision. - The history of Western music is littered with tendencies towards the achievement of rhythmic precision. In some cases, it has reached a point of obsession. But its not a question of good or bad, but whether the specific music work is best served by it.
2) There is an ever-growing demand for this kind of metric approach to rhythm in contemporary western popular music - For example, dancers may demand constant tempo to facilitate uninterrupted movement. Pop mega-production concerts thrive on electronically generated time code to synchronize musicians with light shows, videos, pyrotechnics, and stage movements.
3) The facilities to achieve metric thythmic consistency and accuracy have become increasingly available - For example, the metronome provided an accurate guide for musicians to achieve rhythmic consistency. As mentioned above, synchronization was become increasingly accurate to milliseconds. More recently, quantization in music computer software has enabled human musical performances to be modified to achieve inhumanly consistent rhythmic accuracy.
So my answer would be that while metric rhythm is hegemonic in conteporary Western music, it is still not the only existing rhythmic approach in the world.

C. "Do you really think a tribal drummer in New Guinea sits down with a special drum book and a metronome while counting "1 e and a, 2 e and a..." praciticing his paradiddles and rudiments? Or does he tap into a deeper state of energy that we seem to have forgotten about and play with every single atom of his body?" - Chances are if that tribal drummer lives with a tribe, he/she probably learned drumming from elders, and follows a long history of musical traditions. While these traditions may have been passed on by rote and not by notation, they nevertheless feature various methods of musical organization, which include indigenous rudiments and rhythmic patterns. Among a number of indigenous tribes of my country (Philippines), there are virtuosos who have devoted much of their life to the practice and teaching of the discipline of their instrument. So even ancient traditional music may emerge from musical convention and discipline.

D. Finally, I'm not trying to bellitle the OP, but a statement like "I use drumming as my creative outlet and always try to play without any preconceptions or limitations for myself. This is one reason that I never felt the need to learn any sort of music theory" is begging for a lesson in theory. All the points I raised above are based on theories. That theories provide possible answers to the OPs questions should encourage more people to study them. Theory is not the antethesis of creativity. And to eschew them in an attempt to avoid conformity denies the wisdom of the past. The challenge of any creative musician is to build on, apply, and critique the foundations of past knowledge in an attempt to forge new directions that can be applied in the future.
 
D. Finally, I'm not trying to bellitle the OP, but a statement like "I use drumming as my creative outlet and always try to play without any preconceptions or limitations for myself. This is one reason that I never felt the need to learn any sort of music theory" is begging for a lesson in theory. All the points I raised above are based on theories. That theories provide possible answers to the OPs questions should encourage more people to study them. Theory is not the antethesis of creativity. And to eschew them in an attempt to avoid conformity denies the wisdom of the past. The challenge of any creative musician is to build on, apply, and critique the foundations of past knowledge in an attempt to forge new directions that can be applied in the future.

Nice post !
 
Pardon the long reply, but I have a few comments on some of the OPs statements.

A. The OP is right that humans "have the tendency to try and package everything into neat little boxes" - In a sense, that's exactly what music is. One of the more popular theories about music is that it is ways of organizing sounds. From that, a popular theory for rhythm in music is that it "describes the pattern of events in time." (Handbook of Acoustic Ecology 1999). This leads to yet another theory that there is a wide range of rhythmic types, from "metric" (which I think the OP refers to as "mathematical") to "non-metric" (which I think the OP considers "creative"). So given these theories, some musics can be observed as organized to represent the "organic" rhythms of "nature". Other musics are organized to mimic the precision of machines. Still other musics are not representative of anything physical, and are instead abstract or conceptual. But whatever the objective, music is an attempt to organize sounds, whether melodically, harmonically, or rhythmically. The packaging of the box may not always be neat, but it is still a box.

B. "Is music becoming too mathematical?" - Using the concept of "metric" rhythm, which "involves the subdivision of the measure into equal units marked by a pulse called the beat" (Handbook of Acoustic Ecology again) I can safely state the following.
1) There are types of music that value metric rhythmic consistency and precision. - The history of Western music is littered with tendencies towards the achievement of rhythmic precision. In some cases, it has reached a point of obsession. But its not a question of good or bad, but whether the specific music work is best served by it.
2) There is an ever-growing demand for this kind of metric approach to rhythm in contemporary western popular music - For example, dancers may demand constant tempo to facilitate uninterrupted movement. Pop mega-production concerts thrive on electronically generated time code to synchronize musicians with light shows, videos, pyrotechnics, and stage movements.
3) The facilities to achieve metric thythmic consistency and accuracy have become increasingly available - For example, the metronome provided an accurate guide for musicians to achieve rhythmic consistency. As mentioned above, synchronization was become increasingly accurate to milliseconds. More recently, quantization in music computer software has enabled human musical performances to be modified to achieve inhumanly consistent rhythmic accuracy.
So my answer would be that while metric rhythm is hegemonic in conteporary Western music, it is still not the only existing rhythmic approach in the world.

C. "Do you really think a tribal drummer in New Guinea sits down with a special drum book and a metronome while counting "1 e and a, 2 e and a..." praciticing his paradiddles and rudiments? Or does he tap into a deeper state of energy that we seem to have forgotten about and play with every single atom of his body?" - Chances are if that tribal drummer lives with a tribe, he/she probably learned drumming from elders, and follows a long history of musical traditions. While these traditions may have been passed on by rote and not by notation, they nevertheless feature various methods of musical organization, which include indigenous rudiments and rhythmic patterns. Among a number of indigenous tribes of my country (Philippines), there are virtuosos who have devoted much of their life to the practice and teaching of the discipline of their instrument. So even ancient traditional music may emerge from musical convention and discipline.

D. Finally, I'm not trying to bellitle the OP, but a statement like "I use drumming as my creative outlet and always try to play without any preconceptions or limitations for myself. This is one reason that I never felt the need to learn any sort of music theory" is begging for a lesson in theory. All the points I raised above are based on theories. That theories provide possible answers to the OPs questions should encourage more people to study them. Theory is not the antethesis of creativity. And to eschew them in an attempt to avoid conformity denies the wisdom of the past. The challenge of any creative musician is to build on, apply, and critique the foundations of past knowledge in an attempt to forge new directions that can be applied in the future.

I like this guy! lol : )

I quite like reading though these kind of threads. Food for thought.
 
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