Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Lol! Good one! Like when Christian men make their women cover their faces when going into public? You're so right!

This has nothing to do with destiny, Gretsch. Do you have thoughts on the subject matter of the thread?

There is nothing about ourselves or our preferred tribe/s that makes us any better or worse than others. If I was put in your body with your environment from birth I would respond exactly the same as you. And vice versa.

We take credit and blame for a lot of stuff that was never in our control. We are brief eddies in a vast ocean of energy, buffeted by currents and waves until we dissipate or are dissipated.
 
...... keeping women in a lowly place. I can't get with that.

World history is a curious thing. If you go back far enough, you will find that human behavior has been pretty consistent throughout the globe . If you think human injustice and female discrimination are the exclusive domain of one region on earth, you arent going back far enough in time or looking in other places.

That said, I agree with Grea, lets steer clear of religious comment here, because this thread is a real pearl in a sea of tin foil. I'd hate to see it shut down.


...
 
Frankly, I'm amazed this thread has gone on this long without any major fighting. Bravo everyone. It CAN be done.
 
Geez, I wish you'd said earlier.

You'd've saved us six pages of wasted typing.

Haha ... Bob must be the strong and silent type!

They retain a dignified silence while leaving you in the dark, usually in a state of disturbed confusion ... though I might be projecting from past relationships ... having said that i agree with him :)
 
Lol! Good one! Like when Christian men make their women cover their faces when going into public? You're so right!

I'm not talking about the covering of faces. I'm merely pointing out that every religion has fringe elements and unpleasant consequences - including Christianity. This applies even to the treatment of women. In most denominations, women can't be priests, for example.

In the UK there is an ongoing debate about the various forms of Islamic dress and one of the interesting points is that most of the women that are interviewed speak about how it was their choice to wear it, not their husband's. It's a small and specialised sample but in these Islamic dress is not necessarily anything to do with the husband's view.

From the tone of your reply, I take it you're a Christian. Surely your edict is therefore to be accepting of different cultures, views and customs regardless of your views on individual points of dogma?
 
Duncan, on the surface you are exercising your free will to engage with Mr O-Rama about boring religious guff and the similarities of their traditions on this thread.

However, I know you don't have a choice since your past has resulted in you being a brilliant, but argumentative, git. Meanwhile I am an patronising old cow despite my almost complete lack of achievement thanks to the bats that life put in my belfry :)

To all this Kurt Vonnegut would have said "so it goes".
 
I think that might be instinctive, reflexive neurological/muscular impulse rather than a considered choice.

Nope. We spend a lot of time teaching kids to look before crossing. It seems instinctive because it's drilled into your head, not because some natural instinct of human behavior takes cars and streets into account. Why would instinctive reactions to danger be present if danger could not be avoided, and any attempts to avoid it are futile because it will happen or won't? How would it benefit the species? Pre-destiny, especially on the micro-scale is bollocks. The universe is reacting to what happens, not dictating it.
 
Nope. We spend a lot of time teaching kids to look before crossing. It seems instinctive because it's drilled into your head, not because some natural instinct of human behavior takes cars and streets into account. Why would instinctive reactions to danger be present if danger could not be avoided, and any attempts to avoid it are futile because it will happen or won't? How would it benefit the species? Pre-destiny, especially on the micro-scale is bollocks. The universe is reacting to what happens, not dictating it.

I thought similarly to you about free will until seeing Sam Harris' s YT talk on the impossibilty of free will.

Also nothing is ever done for "the benefit of the species" ... it's all individuals acting on their own behalf.

In real life (as opposed to our cultural bubble) instinct is paramount ... if you don't check to make sure you're not going to be run over by rampaging elephants (ie. cars ) then you don't pass on your genes. Genetics favours those who avoid getting smooshed ...
 
I thought similarly to you about free will until seeing Sam Harris' s YT talk on the impossibilty of free will.
I'll have to check it out. I would wager that it has to do with semantics and definitions of the terms, though.

Also nothing is ever done for "the benefit of the species" ... it's all individuals acting on their own behalf.
I was referring more to natural selection. Traits and "instincts" that are not beneficial would have no reason to exist or develop. If selection is not natural and instead some cosmic process that makes choice and circumstance irrelevant, instincts to avoid danger would be pointless.

In real life (as opposed to our cultural bubble) instinct is paramount ... if you don't check to make sure you're not going to be run over by rampaging elephants (ie. cars ) then you don't pass on your genes. Genetics favours those who avoid getting smooshed ...
Right, but what we're discussing is the possibility that you were "meant" to be trampled and could not avoid it because the universe decided so. In effect, un-natural selection.
 
Duncan, on the surface you are exercising your free will to engage with Mr O-Rama about boring religious guff and the similarities of their traditions on this thread.

However, I know you don't have a choice since your past has resulted in you being a brilliant, but argumentative, git. Meanwhile I am an patronising old cow despite my almost complete lack of achievement thanks to the bats that life put in my belfry :)

To all this Kurt Vonnegut would have said "so it goes".

Argumentative git?! We'll have to take this outside...
 
I'll have to check it out. I would wager that it has to do with semantics and definitions of the terms, though.

I was referring more to natural selection. Traits and "instincts" that are not beneficial would have no reason to exist or develop. If selection is not natural and instead some cosmic process that makes choice and circumstance irrelevant, instincts to avoid danger would be pointless.

Right, but what we're discussing is the possibility that you were "meant" to be trampled and could not avoid it because the universe decided so. In effect, un-natural selection.

Re semantics: check out the vid and let me know. He seemed pretty unequivocal. He said that scientifically the notion of free will is incoherent.

Re instincts having no need to develop: I'd say that developing instincts would be as inevitable as everything else.

Thing is, if you decided your number was up and so you'd step in front of a bus then that would also be inevitable based on, I guess, depression or psychosis due to genetics and environment.

Are we on the same page or am I misreading semantics. Hard to say between jet lag and wino over dinner ...
 
Geez, I wish you'd said earlier.

You'd've saved us six pages of wasted typing.

It was a yes/no question, and I answered it. ;)

Haha ... Bob must be the strong and silent type!
Sometimes. Other times you can't shut me up.

They retain a dignified silence while leaving you in the dark, usually in a state of disturbed confusion...
I tell my wife it's my Swedish side. It drives her crazy, but she loves that I'm Swedish.
 
Surely your edict is therefore to be accepting of different cultures, views and customs regardless of your views on individual points of dogma?

Absolutely. And Ive been laughed at on this board before for saying this, but Christianity is NOT exclusive. In fact, all-inclusive. At the core, that's the teachings. Does everyone who professes to be a Christian act that way? Not nearly.

Ive been somewhat interested in finding more about early Christian church gnostics. They incorporated a great deal of philosophy into their beliefs. Although I'll say not all of their beliefs lined up with history. An amazing Christian artist, and I mean ARTIST, Ive been getting a lot of inspiration from recently is Phil Keaggy. Christian or not, this man is simply amazing. anyway, yeah
 
And further more, to actually address the thread, my Grandfather told me in moment that he feels life is like going through a funnel in a forward direction. I think he meant the perception of our reality and ourselves and time. I think especially time is that way. Like, as time happens we are almost being pulled by something through that funnel. We may have distractions at some of the wider parts that may influence our choices. (I could almost get spiritual here) But I think the point is, we are the most unscathed by life if we can head directly to our goals and progress. Distraction is such a bitch really... I think it's why people are unhappy, have pain, and have little meaning in their lives. And there's more and more to be distracted about everyday....aye.
 
I saw an awesome lecture about this explaining how they can co-exist by one of my favorite philosopher Daniel Dennett (Very scientific philosopher that focus a lot on the latest findings in string theory etc):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKLAbWFCh1E
He really starting to get into it after 15 min.
 
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