MOELLER METHOD

Re: the moler technique

wow, I never heared a drummer who is THAT MUCH wrong about technique and simple laws of physics in general! I will take my time tomorrow and explain all this in details.

PS. Buddy had a good Moeller technique and understanding about the free stroke, that's something you should learn from him...
 
Re: the moler technique

also, the free stroke (Gladstone) and the Moeller are two completely different techniques!! although, they work together, like everything that is natural khehe
 
Re: the moler technique

"You are judging what I say based on your preconceptions about playing and still don't understand the meaning of my words."

No, we are judging (at least me) what you're saying based on our own experience with Moeller and rebound. Not our opinion on an abstract topic - actual experience. Just like your opinion on pillow practice should be formed from your own experience and progress with it, not something you think Buddy Rich wrote. And I'm sure you are judging it on your own experience, right?

Some of us know that Moeller is a natural motion that works with physics and gravity and our body. I personally know getting the natural Moeller motion down sped my leading hand up so I can do 190+ bpm eighth notes. It relaxed everything and gave me increased technical ability that I never thought was possible. I can also go even faster because my wrist and finger technique improved tremendously as a result.

When you do a free stroke, you don't "lose control" of the stick. Just curious, where did you find that out.. from trying it? If you've lost control of the stick, you've done it wrong. Dom isn't losing control of the stick. I don't understand how are we actually having a debate about rebound - and when we are talking about full strokes, half strokes and low strokes we are talking about rebound.
 
Re: the moler technique

...I don't get a rebuttal?

I feel unloved.

Well, at this point I don't think I want to be part of this argument.
 
Re: Moeller mathod is stupid crap.

cactusjack said:
Can I assume you are describing what Famularo calls the Free Stroke?
Letting the drumheads tension return the stick to you?

Wavelength recommended I watch Dom Famularo, so I watched his first one on free stroke.
And stopped right there. He states that the free stroke
is a fundamental motion and where you start with rebound technique.
If that is the first thing you learn your technical aspirations are doomed before you begin.
Again I refer to Buddy's statement that you must have
a firm grip with your fingers. I do not see a firm grip when Dom is playing
the Free Stroke. Buddy recommends playing on a non rebounding surface FIRST,
to develop the wrists strength.
Without a strong wrist first you cannot understand what Buddy is trying to teach you
because you cannot FEEL it until your wrist is strong.
Buddy knows that you must first understand up and down not down and up as Dom
demonstrates and says is first. So who are you going to believe is correct about what is fundamental and first, Dom or Buddy?

This is why I originally stated that Moeller was absurd. You are judging what I say based on your preconceptions about playing and still don't understand the meaning of my words. I repeat everything on earth
must go up to come down, that is a fundamental fact of nature and
motion, Practicing motions that ignore that fact are, useless and do not improve your playing, they will not build the real muscles you need to play
because you are not using them. I'm not talking about weight lifting here,
I'm not trying to develop bulging musculature as someone else seemed to think in one of the more hostile posts.
For a muscle to develop it must work against gravity that's how your muscles work they move your skeleton around fighting gravity at every move. Something Wavelength doesn't seem to take into account since he dissed me for using my muscles and not letting what he calls natural rebound work in my behalf.
What everyone is calling natural rebound is just letting go of the stick and
losing control until it flys back to your hand and you get your grip back.

Why does everyone defend Moeller and ignore Buddy?
I find that fact quite odd.
Click to expand...


Yes I'm describing the free stroke. There is no lack of control. If you have seen Dom play you will understand there is definitely no lack of control.
I'm not basing things on my preconceptions. I'm basing them on my experience with both of these methods. I was a big believer in pillow practice when I first started and practiced it for many years. I got to a point in which I could not improve greatly. Then I went to my current teacher who taught me principles I had started to do naturally as a result of wanting to be more relaxed which were things like Moeller/push-pull/etc etc etc.
It has given a greater understanding of playing drums and the techniques involved that can make a big difference.
I don't think anyone ignores Buddy. He had fantastic use of natural rebound, free stroke, Moeller etc.
But, I do think you're ignoring that in the last 30 years technique has come a long way since Buddy was playing. There are many people who are technically much better than Buddy now (although we don't like to admit it and some will vehemently deny the possibility of there ever being anyone close) which is something you cannot ignore. Jojo Mayer for example. Buddy is great but he is not the 'be all, end all' of drumming and drumming technique.
 
Re: the moler technique

youenjoy00myself said:
...I don't get a rebuttal?

I feel unloved.

Well, at this point I don't think I want to be part of this argument.
Click to expand...

Sorry you feel, unloved. But of course you must raise a louder note higher than a soft one, why do you think I would dispute that with you?
No rebuttal was necessary.
 
Re: Moeller mathod is stupid crap.

jazzin' said:
Yes I'm describing the free stroke. There is no lack of control. If you have seen Dom play you will understand there is definitely no lack of control.
I'm not basing things on my preconceptions. I'm basing them on my experience with both of these methods. I was a big believer in pillow practice when I first started and practiced it for many years. I got to a point in which I could not improve greatly. Then I went to my current teacher who taught me principles I had started to do naturally as a result of wanting to be more relaxed which were things like Moeller/push-pull/etc etc etc.
It has given a greater understanding of playing drums and the techniques involved that can make a big difference.
I don't think anyone ignores Buddy. He had fantastic use of natural rebound, free stroke, Moeller etc.
But, I do think you're ignoring that in the last 30 years technique has come a long way since Buddy was playing. There are many people who are technically much better than Buddy now (although we don't like to admit it and some will vehemently deny the possibility of there ever being anyone close) which is something you cannot ignore. Jojo Mayer for example. Buddy is great but he is not the 'be all, end all' of drumming and drumming technique.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry but Dom's demonstration of the free stroke is one of the silliest things
I have ever seen someone claim is a fundamental motion.
Down than up as I've repeatedly said is the direct opposite of the
way everything on earth moves, don't you understand that?
So how can it be an efficient model for moving the drum stick?
Please explain to me how defying physical laws in doing a physical act
will lead to a superior outcome, than respecting the laws of motion and trying
to use them to play instead .
Is everyone here at drummerworld so enamored of this ancient method that
they cannot understand that parts of it are in opposition to simple physical facts.
jazzin' said:
Then I went to my current teacher who taught me principles I had started to do naturally as a result of wanting to be more relaxed which were things like Moeller/push-pull/etc etc etc.
Click to expand...

Well without seeing you play, it sounds like you were getting your wrist strong enough
to start to find out how to relax,
You said you practiced on a pillow a lot, well thats why you got to the point where
you realized you needed to relax more. That wrist strength you got from the pillow
enabled you to find by FEEL the other motions you mentioned that helped you relax.

Getting back to the free stroke,
I've seen in concert on numerous occasions Buddy Rich, Art Blakey,
Tony Williams, Dennis Chambers, PhillyJoe Jones, Vinnie Coliauta,
Jeff Porcaro, Carlos Vega, Billy Cobham, How many more should I list,
and not one of them ever stopped the stick up in the air by their
earlobes the way Dom does after playing a note in his Free Stroke Video.

jazzin' said:
But, I do think you're ignoring that in the last 30 years technique has come a long way since Buddy was playing.
Click to expand...

I'm ignoring technique has come a long way ????
Your the one defending a method from the begining of the last century
as the method of good technique, not me.
Maybe you need to open your mind to the possibility that the commonly
accepted wisdom here a drummerworld may be flawed and have some errors.
Playing Down then Up will prevent you from ever learning
attack and what it feels like. That is the lack of control I hear
when Dom plays. He has no control of the attack
because he has released his grip on the stick and thrown it down at the drum.
When you let go like that you are not holding the stick firmly at the moment of impact,
so you have no tactile feedback as to what is happening
at the critical moment your are creating your sound.
And isn't what it sounds like, what music is all about?
and isn't that what technique is for? to produce a good sound?
Please don't try to tell me about pulling the sound out of the drum
as that is also a ridiculous idea.
The sound wave is not attached to the tip of the stick.
Pulling the stick into the air does not pull sound out of a drum.
Inspite of what Dave Weckl claims in his video.
When you have control of the attack, You have control of
the sound the stick makes. You can play with an open tone or a
muffled one as you can feel it in your hands and make
the simple changes that control it.
 
Re: Moeller mathod is stupid crap.

cactusjack said:
Down than up as I've repeatedly said is the direct opposite of the
way everything on earth moves, don't you understand that?
So how can it be an efficient model for moving the drum stick?
Click to expand...
What about Newtons Third law of motion? Wont the action of striking of the stick against the surface then create an equal and opposite reaction, which will propel the stick upwards? ANd gravity pulls down if Im not mistaken, so it makes sense to me that it would be efficient, but then again Im not a physics whiz and I may be horribly mistaken.
 
Re: the moler technique

jangus said:
Man this thread is so hard to read. Everybody's arguing different points or something. Cactus is on another planet. Moeller is not for playing single strokes, its for playing an accent followed by multiple softer strokes. So why are you arguing about single strokes Cactus? The point of moeller is to work with your body's natural movement. Are you doubting all the people that do use it? Joe Morello uses moeller or something similar to it. Are you saying he is unmusical and creates tension? I don't know where I'm going with this but so many of your points are irrelevant or just wrong. What are you trying to argue here again?

Honestly I just want to say some of the rudest things to you because you sound like such an ignorant douche.

I'm so confused. I want to see a video of what you consider to be good technique because what you're saying sounds so illogical to me.
Moeller is a very natural motion, something that you could naturally use without even knowing you use it. Your understanding of it might be a little off.
Click to expand...

I'll make it as simple as possible.
Up then Down = Good
Down then Up = useless, Contrary to all laws of motion on planet Earth.
Why is this reality so hard for everyone to accept?

What is illogical about following laws of motion and human anatomy?
It seems more illogical to ignore them to me.

Why get mad at me because I don't agree with your
concepts of how to play?

Most of the things I'm doing technically that are different
from you are too small and subtle of motions for you to see
in a video unless they were pointed out to you as they occurred.
The technique I use and teach is only learned by listening
and feeling, you would have to sit opposite me and play
some rudiments togther, then you would hear the sound
and tonal difference between our strokes and I could then
coach you in making the proper adjustments in grip and motion
that would aid your understanding of what I'm doing .
Watching technique will not teach it to you.
If that were so we could all watch a Buddy Rich video
and be done with it in an evening.
You have to hear it in your head and then feel it in your hands.
 
Re: the moler technique

bean6022000 said:
The articles and accompanying videos at the following website are, in my opinion, the most comprehensive history of, demonstrations of, and list of advantages of the moeller. I think one can easily see some advantages to this method.

http://www.digbydoodle.com/Moeller/vintage.htm
Click to expand...

I just watched all the videos, As I've said before silly old stuff.
Here's something for you to ponder.
The opposable human thumb is meant for grasping as I understand human anatomy.
So what is the advantage of not using the thumb and index to hold the stick when that's their anatomical function , to grasp. Why try to hold the stick with the weakest fingers instead of the strongest?
 
Re: Moeller mathod is stupid crap.

brittc89 said:
What about Newtons Third law of motion? Wont the action of striking of the stick against the surface then create an equal and opposite reaction, which will propel the stick upwards? ANd gravity pulls down if Im not mistaken, so it makes sense to me that it would be efficient, but then again Im not a physics whiz and I may be horribly mistaken.
Click to expand...

Yes it would, but only if you throw the stick down first
will the stick fly up as it's reaction
If you start low turn the wrist to lift the stick up and then
relax and allow gravity to return the stick to the drumhead
it will stop low, not high.
Newtons third law is observed.
As I've said previously, it's similar to running,
you lift your foot up and gravity pulls it down as fast as you lifted it.
The exact same thing occurs with the hands, you lift up
and then gravity pulls you back to where you started from .
It's so easy, and natural to do.
 
Re: the moler technique

Wow this is just ridiculous.

"Down then Up = useless, Contrary to all laws of motion on planet Earth."

Honestly, how can you even write that? It's not true. What happens when you bounce a basketball on the ground? It comes back up. That's making use of gravity and physics.

According to your logic, drummers should lift their drumsticks up and then let go of them, or better yet throw their sticks up in the air so that they land on the correct drums.

Of course you don't see drummers playing a full stroke exercise during their performance. But you might see them make a bunch of consecutive accents which mastery of the full stroke lets you do with ease. And control. It's called a technique exercise. I've never seen Dennis Chambers pull out some pillows to play on while he was performing.

You see Dom's full stroke as a lack of control... right. Keep dreaming. It might look like that to you, but if you mastered rebound you'd realize that you can in fact completely control the stick without squeezing it like a "hammer".

Everyone this is pointless. It seems like cactusjack is living on another planet where gravity actually moves away from the earth.
 
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Re: Moeller mathod is stupid crap.

Here you will see buddy implement just about every technique known to man, moller, control strokes, rebound strokes, finger technique. Not all of this uses rebound, but all of it is a minpulation of how a drum stick reacts to drum heads. Rebound is either killed or used, it does not just dissapear. Were not walking on pavements here, were playing drums.


URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgaD54YcXpA&mode=related&search="]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgaD54YcXpA&mode=related&search=[/URL]
 
Re: the moler technique

I've just read through this very long thread and I've found it very interesting. If we look at what CatusJack is saying:

'Down then Up = useless, Contrary to all laws of motion on planet Earth.'

He's actually quite right, as you need to LIFT the stick first moving it UP, in order to then drop or throw the stick back DOWN, which then allows it to move back UP. Without lifting how else does the stick ever get high enough to allow us to move it down? It should really be UP,DOWN,UP, as without UP there is no DOWN!!

To use the basketball analogy, the ball will never bounce unless it is first lifted to some height, then it's dropped and it rebounds back, but the first motion used was to lift it and you don't lift down, you lift up!!
 
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