musical vs analytical listening

fuerchter

Junior Member
hi guys
i watched benny grebs dvd recently and the listening section (or the musical part) made me think about my approach to or my perception of drumming. i started to feel like i'm not listening to the music as if it were music, but rather analytically. i tend to analyze the drums, thinking "could i play that", and tapping along to find out what kind of beat the drummer plays. besides that i think i'm picking the music i listen to from an analytical perspective as well. i think i choose music which is rather complex and/or fast. this unfortunately results in me not being able to play my "favourite" songs, which again results in frustration.

i sometimes feel like music is something "random" to me (if you understand what i'm saying) and it seem that i don't look for an overall feel or groove or a certain mood in music. for me music has become a pattern.

i don't know if anyone else feels the way i do (i used the search engine but i didn't find very much), but maybe someone can help me become a bit more musical instead of analytical. btw. i have played in a band and i'm currently starting over with another band but i still feel rather weird :D
greetings
 
i try to call the two ways "emotional" and "intellectual"; rather without putting a "versus" between them. they are in my ears just two sides of the same thing, and both are indeed musical.

the emotional side dominates often when i am at a concert or hearing a tune or an album the first time. do i like it? what feeling does the music bring up? what pictures arise in my mind? does it make me really want to move my body? etc.

when i like a song emotionally then i will be listening to it often. and then sometimes the intellectual or analytical ear steps in. what are the different sections of the tune? the changes? the melody? the rhythm? what are the instruments playing in particular? and why does the music make me feel the way it does? why do i like this section more than another etc.

while the emotional way helps me to understand or at least follow a piece that i cant get in the intellectual way; the analytical listening often comes up when i listen to a "simple" pop tune on the radio which doesnt catch my emotions.

but both ways are equal and in my opinion not even judging about the "quality" of music. i try to train both and switch between them as i like.
 
yeah i understand that and it shows how that issue seems to bother you =) i almost put a vs in there too because i like to let crash two words against each other..

im afraid i cant give you good ideas to focus on the "musical" side... perhaps paying close attention to film-music? or trying to follow a piece that isnt strongly determined in terms of rhythm or patterns? perhaps you could try to compose music if you dont have yet. or improvise on your drums just with sounds and not with patterns?

but do not at all feel bad about the battle; i think thats just normal. these things will come to you sooner or later if you continue to listen to music. and if your way is the analytical, intellectual one thats perfectly fine.
 
Here is an interesting lecture with Ken Robinson talking about creativity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG9CE55wbtY

If you view analytic as mathematical intelligence, then there is a analytical component to music. But if you could just analyze it, we would all be geniuses if we could analyze ourselves into brilliance.

So that artistic and creative part is what functions to make the difference. I asked this question of Steve Gadd. I asked what it is that you think about when you are playing? What is your creative process and is it something you could even talk about? He said sure. I am thinking about how other drummers I have heard would approach the music. This gives him a plethora of ideas to work with and then he approaches it in his own way. So there is an analytic approach to music; but one needs to get past that in order to be a creative artist.
 
thanks for your advice guys, i will try to apply it. so from what i have understood so far, i should continue to play/listen in the areas i want to (more analytical in this case trying to use a bit musicality). the way you said it it sounded like i would be authentic that way.

you can still go on posting though :D
 
thanks for your advice guys, i will try to apply it. so from what i have understood so far, i should continue to play/listen in the areas i want to (more analytical in this case trying to use a bit musicality). the way you said it it sounded like i would be authentic that way.

you can still go on posting though :D

And there's always the chance that your tastes will change. I enjoy a lot of music now that I rejected when I was young.
 
I believe it all comes together with the years. Taste, emotions, intellect, mathematical and logical aspects all go mostly hand in hand for me.

Sometimes these things come together for me but there are times when I like to switch off my brain and just get into the visceral side of things. I enjoy rawness in music a lot more now than in the past.
 
Matthias, I'll let you in on a secret (that won't be now). I first saw Meg drumming on a YouTube vid a fair while before I'd heard of the WS. I was shocked and, yes, horrified that such a poor drummer could be in a name band while all those years I'd practised fanatically to get there without success. If I'd seen the forum then I would have been as dismissive of her as those I've since been trying to fend off :)

What changed? I was reacting reflexively, as though I was still a young, wild-eyed thing with musical prospects rather than the old/middle aged hobbyist I am today. In the words of Donald Fagan, "Don't you know by now that it's just a spasm?". I realised that, no, I'm not in the game any more. Who was I kidding? Time to grow up. It simply didn't matter.

So I relaxed and just listened and watched when I came across a WS vid.
Amazingly, the music actually sounded kind of cool - raw and ballsy, and with a rootsy blues influence you almost never hear with newer bands. And it was fun to watch Meg. While she never looked quite in control, there was never a train wreck - like watching a clumsy high wire acrobat wobble their way across a tightrope, always looking as though they're about the fall any second but somehow always making it across. Simply good entertainment. Plus I enjoyed the drum sound and the clarity her simple parts provided.

For an old King Crimson and Mahavishnu fan, that was quite a turnaround :) So now there is no formula to what I enjoy. I still love the fabulous sounds and sophistication of top acts but, in the end, the way I feel now ... I totally don't care how slick, sophisticated, cool, uncool, cynical, naive, tasteful, ugly etc music is ... if it grabs me, it grabs me :)
 
hi guys
i watched benny grebs dvd recently and the listening section (or the musical part) made me think about my approach to or my perception of drumming. i started to feel like i'm not listening to the music as if it were music, but rather analytically. i tend to analyze the drums, thinking "could i play that", and tapping along to find out what kind of beat the drummer plays. besides that i think i'm picking the music i listen to from an analytical perspective as well. i think i choose music which is rather complex and/or fast. this unfortunately results in me not being able to play my "favourite" songs, which again results in frustration.

i sometimes feel like music is something "random" to me (if you understand what i'm saying) and it seem that i don't look for an overall feel or groove or a certain mood in music. for me music has become a pattern.

i don't know if anyone else feels the way i do (i used the search engine but i didn't find very much), but maybe someone can help me become a bit more musical instead of analytical. btw. i have played in a band and i'm currently starting over with another band but i still feel rather weird :D
greetings

Recently while listening to some fusion I hadn't heard in 20 yrs and I was disappointed it was all clear. The last time I heard it, it went over my head. 20 years ago it had seemed amazing. I missed my old ignorance.

Having said that, understanding certainly outweighs my old ignorance. To be able to comprehend music and how it works has improved my listening. I am also able to listen to a far wider range of musical styles that in the past I may have avoided.

I am going to do some courses this year to improve my understanding even more. A fellow teacher at a college where I teach just completed a fantastic arranging course. I am going to enroll in the next course.
 
Benny Grebb's DVD is awesome, and he's definitely one of my inspirational contemporary drummers of the age. Guy is a trip and has a vast understanding of drumset theory.

I usually listen to music for the sake of the sound and how it makes me feel, but now that I've developed more facility on the drumset and a deeper understanding of how playing drums works when written down, I easily use that information to learn drum parts that have fascinated me

I think we all as musicians in general want to reach the state where we can freely create music without having to worry about the technicalities of that creation, and the only way to reach that phase is by being a natural born prodifgy or having practiced extensive exposure to enough permutations to bring it together into coherent "sentences" as Greb put it, hope that made sense
 
Polly, I understand what you're saying. I think when we had to decide from all the ways of
listening and perceiving, it would definitely be taste that wins over everything. There is
awesome playing and compositions out there that doesn't say anything to me, and there
are amateurish sounding pieces of music I absolutely like.
 
take everything you ever knew about playing any instrument. throw it out the window, and then play the instrument :)

revert to your primordial being and beat the drum
 
Polly, I understand what you're saying. I think when we had to decide from all the ways of listening and perceiving, it would definitely be taste that wins over everything. There is awesome playing and compositions out there that doesn't say anything to me, and there are amateurish sounding pieces of music I absolutely like.

It's a weird thing, isn't it? Reminds me of how peeved I was when a rough punk band won a band comp (with a huge rent-a-crowd) over my eclectic and fairly polished band at the time. In hindsight, I know who was making the clearer musical statement.

Clarity grabs people, however, that kind of clarity without skill can get old quickly - the same old devices, textures, beats etc. That's why the WS broke up; they'd done all the exploring they were going to do within the boundaries they'd set. Given the obvious limitations with band size and drum technique they did incredibly well to do what they did.

I like it when a sophisticated musician's conception matches their technique. I get bored quickly when players blow tons of chops in every song (unless it's something like Mahavishnu or Weather Report, where they are simply on another plane).

But when skilled players have a mature outlook and use their ears at least as much as their hands, where they hold back and then bring the goodies to the table at exactly the right time it has so much more impact.

It's the same principle as having the way free time is so special for someone who's normally working, but dreary for someone who's unemployed. Viva la difference!
 
Simple music can also be anaiysed. I often point students toward the music of ABBA so they can hear brutally efficient editting. Understanding isn't busy and technical proficiency isn't complexity. Nor must it be used in such a way.
 
More intellectual: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO2BIf12xnQ

More emotional: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW8UlrtcEac

Lots of both: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV-lBswnEvE

They're all wonderful IMO - plus all the shades of grey in between.

If you tend towards the intellectual at the moment, then maybe the intellectual side of music is more your place in the scene? Whatever you do, I think it's best to follow your heart in music, even if it's coldly analytical :)
Pol, only the Joni Mitchell track spoke to me, & even then, only to my head, not my heart. I think I need "lots of both" but delivered with a primeval pulse that speaks to my soul. As you said, vive la difference!

I get super impressed when I get one band that does this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRuZBVnxuKE followed by this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxH4uvy512A&feature=fvwrel
 
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