Rant!

I fully sympathise with YOU. I don't empathise with you because I'm in a 'professional' band (ie. we are serious and professional about what we do even though we get shafted left, right, and centre by venues, promoters AND OTHER BANDS !!)
Our band may not be our sole form of income, but we're certainly professional & serious about what we do. It's a bit more than a bunch of guys bashing out a few songs in the corner of a bar.

I get your point about it not ruining it for the two bands concerned, but I must disagree with you on it not adversely affecting anyone else. I don't give a crap about the loss of the gig, we have more gig offers than we want to take, but the affect of devaluing live acts in general is not helped by accepting joke token performance fees.

Agree on the lame acts getting paid a ton of cash though, but invariably, they've achieved some form of notoriety at some stage in their "career". Doesn't excuse it though :(

I said that I would play it for $50 to cover my expenses. He said that they wanted us to play for free.
Quite right too Bob. If the cause is a good one, & the finances are fair + transparent, I don't mind playing 1 or 2 such events per year. No way I'm paying to play though, that's just disrespectful towards those giving their time freely.

At an event like that, I am surprised you didn't ask for triple what you quoted them.
Exactly! We quoted them about 1/3rd of the fee we'd normally appropriate for a rally or festival. The only reasons we reduced it were 1/ there was some sort of charity element. 2/ We don't have to haul PA + lighting plus pay crew.
 
That's just straight up malpractice on the part of the event promoters. Like if they tried to save a few bucks by serving funky, out of date beer at the bar, or hiring their dirtbag fry cook brother-in-law to be the chef. I agree with Larry that your bid for this job was too low.

I think we 'musicians' are the ones kidding ourselves.

I don't know how anyone can be a professional musician and agree with that sentiment. Just because music is worthless to some people doesn't mean you have to agree with them, and play by their rules.

You say they're ruining it for all musicians...but they're not. They're just ruining it for those who want to make a good slug of money. The two bands who got the gig have, errr, got the gig. It's not ruined for them. They'll probably have a great day.

If you're in a professional act and think that ~$600+ is a good slug of money for entertaining 6000 people... well, I don't know what to tell you.

And what the other bands got is not a gig. Sort of like working for McDonald's for 5 cents an hour in not a job. I don't know how you think you're ever going to earn a living in this business.

But, really, you have to see it from a) the other bands' points of view and b) the venue point of view.

Actually, you don't. Clearly the event promoters are total bottom-feeding scumbags who wouldn't get out of bed to p*** if they thought they could get away with it, and the bands are the rankest amateurs on the planet, and have no business seeking paying work. You have to maintain professional standards no matter what anyone else is doing.
 
I don't know how anyone can be a professional musician and agree with that sentiment. Just because music is worthless to some people doesn't mean you have to agree with them, and play by their rules.

…and I dont know how you can be a pro and not agree that thats the reality out there, even if it might not apply to you, personally.

Sure, play by your own rules and play for your friends, admirers and for the love of music, and for nickles and dimes.

Yes, live music is worthless to club owners/ event promoters and other business folk in general.

Its a commodity. Its not art that needs patronage, like what you & I might want to believe.

To them, its footfalls. Just a means to fill a club, a venue, or a stadium.



...and the music business world has been sucking off this little perception mismatch, since forever.

You want to know why?

Because they know that deep down inside your heart…

way way down..

… its your achilles heel. That if they give you a stage, and and audience, and a chance to express yourself - because that is your oxygen, isnt it? -

you WILL do the gig. Practically for free. If youy don't, there's somebody else who will.

Oh yes, they do know that- and they milk it till the cows come home.




...
 
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I understand what you're saying. This really screws everyone. Folks hoping to have a nice live band at a great event get a karoake show instead...or worse. It should be clear to most there that the promoters skimped on the band budget. You'll have to wait and see.

A deal like this ruins it for all the other bands too. There are several bands in my area more than willing to play for only tips or to be paid about $25 for a night's work. That's pathetic; just because some of these bands are that desperate to get a gig, they'll take anything.
 
Our band may not be our sole form of income, but we're certainly professional & serious about what we do. It's a bit more than a bunch of guys bashing out a few songs in the corner of a bar.

I get your point about it not ruining it for the two bands concerned, but I must disagree with you on it not adversely affecting anyone else. I don't give a crap about the loss of the gig, we have more gig offers than we want to take, but the affect of devaluing live acts in general is not helped by accepting joke token performance fees.

Agree on the lame acts getting paid a ton of cash though, but invariably, they've achieved some form of notoriety at some stage in their "career". Doesn't excuse it though :(

.

I think you probably took what I said the wrong way...when I parenthesised 'professional' I meant that we act, play, and carry ourselves professionally even if we don't get paid or receive minimal pay. I wasn't poking a finger at your and your band at all.

My point stands....it's clearly not a joke performance fee for the other bands....you need not like it but they'll be playing for exposure, for tips, and for fun. You've priced yourself out. It's not right but welcome to the world of the unsigned band in the UK.

And you sort of said it yourself....you're getting plenty of gigs so your fine. Perhaps they aren't but desperately want to play out. I think it harsh to be too critical on the band. The promoter/venue for sure...but the band....sh1t man they just wanna play maybe ??
 
I understand what you're saying. This really screws everyone. Folks hoping to have a nice live band at a great event get a karoake show instead...or worse. It should be clear to most there that the promoters skimped on the band budget. You'll have to wait and see.

A deal like this ruins it for all the other bands too. There are several bands in my area more than willing to play for only tips or to be paid about $25 for a night's work. That's pathetic; just because some of these bands are that desperate to get a gig, they'll take anything.

Yeah....shock, horror, bands wanna get out and showcase their music and play to an audience.

I really don't understand why people are poking the finger at bands like it's a major crime that, rather than stay at home, demand 200 quid and get ZERO gigs, they'd rather go out, demand 50 notes and get SOME gigs.

Sheesh...must be just me
 
I think you probably took what I said the wrong way...when I parenthesised 'professional' I meant that we act, play, and carry ourselves professionally even if we don't get paid or receive minimal pay. I wasn't poking a finger at your and your band at all.
It's ok, I didn't take it that way at all. I was just highlighting the fact that we take our shows seriously, & the venues get great value for money, both in terms of reputation for quality acts & financially in takings.
 
I really don't understand why people are poking the finger at bands like it's a major crime that, rather than stay at home, demand 200 quid and get ZERO gigs, they'd rather go out, demand 50 notes and get SOME gigs.

When the number of gigs shrink, the pros want hobbyists to stop taking their gigs and stop inadvertently driving pay down while they try to pay rent and feed their bambinos.

Meanwhile many hobbyists just want to play out once in a while to bring some light and soul into their miserable lives after slogging it out with the automatons at work.

It's an example of conflict of interest brought about by scarcity. Two worthy causes - one gig.

I can't see a satisfactory answer. Maybe it's just as Sting said, when the world is running down you make the best of what's still around ...
 
That's just straight up malpractice on the part of the event promoters. Like if they tried to save a few bucks by serving funky, out of date beer at the bar, or hiring their dirtbag fry cook brother-in-law to be the chef. I agree with Larry that your bid for this job was too low.

Is it balls as malpractice....absolutely the opposite from the perspective of what the role of the organisers of that event are tasked to do. Totally the opposite. They're doing nothing different than almost any business will do

I don't know how anyone can be a professional musician and agree with that sentiment. Just because music is worthless to some people doesn't mean you have to agree with them, and play by their rules.

So fine....only the best, most professional bands, ever get to gig. The rest of us, that vast swathe of up and coming bands, or bands with a different view on life to the hardened pros, or musicians starting out on the road, or young musicians looking for exposure can go 'f*** themselves....right?? Because in your utopian world that's what would happen. You do realise that ?

If you're in a professional act and think that ~$600+ is a good slug of money for entertaining 6000 people... well, I don't know what to tell you.
$600 for an evenings work is decent money

And what the other bands got is not a gig. Sort of like working for McDonald's for 5 cents an hour in not a job. I don't know how you think you're ever going to earn a living in this business.

Of course it is (a gig). What are you talking about ?? Is it so hard to believe that not everyone is motivated by the idea of making a living out of playing music?....well, frankly, they're not...and that's a fact pal. A cold hard one.



Actually, you don't. Clearly the event promoters are total bottom-feeding scumbags who wouldn't get out of bed to p*** if they thought they could get away with it, and the bands are the rankest amateurs on the planet, and have no business seeking paying work. You have to maintain professional standards no matter what anyone else is doing.

not necessarily. Maybe they got a good band on for a relatively cheap amount. It's their job. In terms of the band....well, they'll have great fun I'm sure.

All with the utmost of respect to you and the OP by the way. I respect your opinion. I just don't agree with all of it.
 
When the number of gigs shrink, the pros want hobbyists to stop taking their gigs and stop inadvertently driving pay down while they try to pay rent and feed their bambinos.

Meanwhile many hobbyists just want to play out once in a while to bring some light and soul into their miserable lives after slogging it out with the automatons at work.

It's an example of conflict of interest brought about by scarcity. Two worthy causes - one gig.

I can't see a satisfactory answer. Maybe it's just as Sting said, when the world is running down you make the best of what's still around ...

That's a very astute point.

Maybe it is the pro's who need to adjust their demands, change their modus operandi, rather than the hobbyists?? We already have one pro saying that $600 is not good money for an evenings work. I think that would have a lot of people, certainly on my side of the pond, in unsigned bands, falling off their chair to be honest.

Although....I have to say that the venues and gigs which my merry band of brothers play do not pay articularly well (small, local venues), and would not therefore even begin to appeal to pro bands....certainly if they are looking for a $600 a gig start point. Soooooo I'd like to think that my lot are not treading on too many toes here...perhaps a different situation than the one the OP has described.
 
not necessarily. Maybe they got a good band on for a relatively cheap amount. It's their job. In terms of the band....well, they'll have great fun I'm sure.

I think that OP isn't talking about how much fun the band will have. The OP is talking about how bands that low ball on price make the consumer of the band think that is how much music should cost. 66 pounds for a full band, really? A golf course I live on paid $2000 for a cover band to play, and they thought that price was a steel.

I guess it depends on the area to determine how much a band should be paid to play. People underselling themselves doesn't help the market.

Hopefully, this is a case of the planner not knowing any better. Considering the event, surely they could afford more.
 
I think that OP isn't talking about how much fun the band will have. The OP is talking about how bands that low ball on price make the consumer of the band think that is how much music should cost. 66 pounds for a full band, really? A golf course I live on paid $2000 for a cover band to play, and they thought that price was a steel.

I guess it depends on the area to determine how much a band should be paid to play. People underselling themselves doesn't help the market.

Hopefully, this is a case of the planner not knowing any better. Considering the event, surely they could afford more.

I can see that and can fully understand the point.

And that cover band had better have been good :)
 
This debate will always have people on each side. It's a situation that will never resolve unless they pass and enforce new laws. The only thing you can do is accept it and work around it. Each side of the debate is convinced they are right....and they are! So what do you do with that? There's no minimum anything it seems for people who hire bands. Whatever deal they can make is great. Anything goes, so low cost will almost always win out. It sucks but, well there it is.
 
I feel like this reflects the music industry as a whole right now. The people in positions of power know they have the power and you can either take the deal they offer you which is usually terrible) or leave it and go nowhere at all...

I've seen a few festivals pop up recently which are actually organised and funded by the bands themselves and made sure all the bands got a fair deal. Seems to parallel the DIY recording/internet distribution that's going on too.

Musicians have had enough and are going it alone. One day the power may shift because of this. But money will always talk and there's alway an idiot there waiting to take whatever they can get...
 
What's wrong with society when a DJ can be as entertaining as a band?

Is there a problem with a DJ being more entertaining than a band?.

Being able to play the guitar doesn't automatically put you in a higher category of performing than being able to spin records.
You can be very musical and creative in both of those things, or you can be downright bad.

Just like there is a difference between a band and a band, there's a difference between a DJ and a DJ.
 
…and I dont know how you can be a pro and not agree that thats the reality out there, even if it might not apply to you, personally.

I understand that the economy for music is very screwed up right now, and it does apply to me personally.

Sure, play by your own rules and play for your friends, admirers and for the love of music, and for nickles and dimes.

I'm not sure what you're talking about here. I'm talking about providing a professional service to people who want it, just like any other businessperson.

Yes, live music is worthless to club owners/ event promoters and other business folk in general.

Its a commodity. Its not art that needs patronage, like what you & I might want to believe.

Art has nothing to do with it. It's a service. Everyone in the world knows that when they want professional service, they have to pay for it. Sometimes I have to educate people that that is what I'm offering, and they don't always hire me when they find out that I play by the same rules as everyone else in society. If they don't feel that is their loss, I don't care; they just need to be told no.

To them, its footfalls. Just a means to fill a club, a venue, or a stadium.

...and the music business world has been sucking off this little perception mismatch, since forever.

You want to know why?

Because they know that deep down inside your heart…

way way down..

… its your achilles heel. That if they give you a stage, and and audience, and a chance to express yourself - because that is your oxygen, isnt it? -

you WILL do the gig. Practically for free. If youy don't, there's somebody else who will.

I take it by "you" you mean musicians in general, not me personally. Where that resembles anything like reality, in my end of the business, it's too much of a joke to be as sinister as you make it out to be. Like virtually everyone else today, I do take basically free gigs when the music will be good, and no one is likely to be making money; I absolutely do not take blatantly exploitive things like the event at hand, and I don't believe many of the people I know would, either.

not necessarily. Maybe they got a good band on for a relatively cheap amount. It's their job. In terms of the band....well, they'll have great fun I'm sure.

Well, first, £50 does not even qualify as an amount of money on an event of this scale-- it's not relatively cheap, it's nothing at all. To serious people, the actual job is to arrange entertainment for 6000 paying guests, within a certain realistic budget. The only people who approach the job the way you describe-- just getting any four jerkoffs who kind of look like a band, and no price is too low-- are clueless amateurs, or total bottom-feeders. I admit there are a lot of them out there... :p
 
Is there a problem with a DJ being more entertaining than a band?.

Being able to play the guitar doesn't automatically put you in a higher category of performing than being able to spin records.
You can be very musical and creative in both of those things, or you can be downright bad.

Just like there is a difference between a band and a band, there's a difference between a DJ and a DJ.

Those aren't the DJ's I'm talking about...mind you, I don't find someone spinning some else's work very entertaining anyway.

I'm talking about the clown who puts on a play list (usually corny 80's stuff) and has the mic in his hand all night, telling lame jokes, making people do conga lines or playing silly party games...
 
Those aren't the DJ's I'm talking about...mind you, I don't find someone spinning some else's work very entertaining anyway.

I'm talking about the clown who puts on a play list (usually corny 80's stuff) and has the mic in his hand all night, telling lame jokes, making people do conga lines or playing silly party games...

I get not liking the clown DJs...

But I'd take a mediocre DJ over a mediocre band, any day.

I gather you don't like to go out dancing? Very few live bands make you want to dance for hours.
 
I Well, first, £50 does not even qualify as an amount of money on an event of this scale-- it's not relatively cheap, it's nothing at all. To serious people, the actual job is to arrange entertainment for 6000 paying guests, within a certain realistic budget. The only people who approach the job the way you describe-- just getting any four jerkoffs who kind of look like a band, and no price is too low-- are clueless amateurs, or total bottom-feeders. I admit there are a lot of them out there... :p

OK....firstly I agree. £50 for that particular gig is nothing.

Let me tell you what my band would do....if we were offered a gig for £50 to play in front of 6,000 people we'd see it slightly differently than you. We'd see it as a gig for 6,000 people. 6,000 people will hear our music. They will like our music. They will buy our album when it is released in March/April next year. 10% of them may come to our future gigs. They might keep the flyers we will hand out....the drinks mats...the general advertising. There would be a big band stramash on whether to do the gig.....some of us would suggest the venue are 'taking the piss'....some of us would see it in a more strategic level....we'd come to a consensus probably to play the gig....more pros than cons.

The exposure to US is bigger than £50. That's worth a lot of money TO US.

And please....you should lay of the insults towards that band. You don't know them. You wouldn't call them 'four jerkoffs' if they were stood in front of you. So show some class. You talk of professionalism on the one hand, yet you completely disrespect fellow musicians without even having heard the standard of their music. That's disgraceful to be frank.

PS: We'd not get signed to a gig playing for 6,000 people as we're an originals band...but the principle remains valid.

I'll tell you something else. We played a 'four jerkoffs' gig six months or so back. The venue gave us expenses, £40. We probably put considerably more in the venues pockets as we have a half decent following. Another band played on the same set list. Young kids. they rehearse next to us in the studios in Ashton. We gave our £40 to them. They made £60 on the night as a result. Not a lot. But they were pleased. We were happy. We all have good jobs. We don't need the money.

We played a support slot for a major UK touring band not so long back. That band made over £5,000 from the gig. We did a great support slot for them. Received lots of positive feedback. Helped those guys with their equipment and their soundcheck. Christ we even offered to pick them some fish and chips up from the local chippy to save them having to traipse out to eat. Want me to tell you how much those pros gave to us for our 'help'?? You guess....you probably don't need me to tell. Could they have slipped us a hundred, or a couple hundred quid....well, possibly.

My point being....being a professional musician does not equate to 'class' or 'doing the right thing' and I'm finding, in this industry (in the UK) that it is often the crappy little four jerkoffs who show considerably more respect and class to their fellow musicians than 'the pros'.

You sound like someone who believes the world owes you a good living and the value of anyone who thinks differently doesn't seem to matter diddly fk to you...well guess what...the world isn't fking fair. The above example evidences that
 
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