MOELLER METHOD

Re: the moler technique

I've just read through this very long thread and I've found it very interesting. If we look at what CatusJack is saying:

'Down then Up = useless, Contrary to all laws of motion on planet Earth.'

He's actually quite right, as you need to LIFT the stick first moving it UP, in order to then drop or throw the stick back DOWN, which then allows it to move back UP. Without lifting how else does the stick ever get high enough to allow us to move it down? It should really be UP,DOWN,UP, as without UP there is no DOWN!!

To use the basketball analogy, the ball will never bounce unless it is first lifted to some height, then it's dropped and it rebounds back, but the first motion used was to lift it and you don't lift down, you lift up!!


Acctualy you'll lift basketball only once after that you can work only down, down ,down. You add extra energy when throwing ball down thus working only one way. In fast passages it's very smart. But yes you can lift the ball up throw it down put your hand on it -stop it and bring it up again :)
 
Re: the moler technique

CJ, I would suggest you pick up a book on general physics and motion and learn a little more about it. I just think you're a little confused as to what is and isn't true regarding making use of gravity. By moving the stick from down to up, you are fighting gravity, not working with it. Gravity pulls everything down, therefore you are exerting more energy to pull the stick away from the ground. The free stroke and similar rebound-oriented methods involve hitting the drum and letting the natural laws of energy rebound the stick for you, so that you don't have to fight gravity and exert more energy than you have to.
 
Re: the moler technique

I also think that you are confusing the movement of 'up to down' and the term 'natural'.

'Natural' is in regards to the motion your body makes when executing the free stroke or the Moeller stroke. It's literally a natural MOVEMENT of your body. Your wrist moves in that motion naturally. Your elbow and forearm move in the Moeller motion naturally. In other words, you aren't fighting to get your body to do crazy movements which can lead to trouble and injury. You are using the laws of physics, in accordance with the natural movements of your limbs, to get the most out of your playing.
 
Re: the moler technique

Well, I'm simply done with this thread. I'm taking britt c's advice and am off to play some funky musak! While Caktusjack can keep appointing his weird ridiculous arguments on technique to the highest realms of drumming nirvana, I have a strong notion that very few people will actually take anything he says as worthy enough to warrant exploration.

I'm pretty sure that he is just being a contentious troll. Someone with only a few posts will not often be that argumentative unless they are bored and simply want attention. Once again, Caktoooos jack, I suggest going to a good technique teacher. It will change your odd perspective on some technical matters that really have nothing to do with the grand laws of physics and aeronautical engineering that you seem to think it has to do with. It's drumming for christ's sake. You're only holding a small pair of drumsticks and waving your arms around hitting things.
 
Re: the moler technique

Acctualy you'll lift basketball only once after that you can work only down, down ,down. You add extra energy when throwing ball down thus working only one way. In fast passages it's very smart. But yes you can lift the ball up throw it down put your hand on it -stop it and bring it up again :)

Yep. Totally agree, when you are bouncing something you only lift it the first time. What I think CatusJack is getting at is the up part of the motion is being ignored to an extent.

When I first started drumming, many moons ago, I was told that to play from my wrists. Through experimenting over the past 20 years, I've found the Moeller technique to be good for one accent per hand, giving us a maximum of two consecutive accents. I know I'm not the only one to have this thought, as I had a similar conversation with Joe Morello and probably many others have came to the same conclusions.

When I find I want to play multiple hand to hand accents of three or more, all of which are rim shots, you then have to start using the wrists and physically start lifting the sticks, as the rim shots reduce the rebound dramatically. This is when the upwards part of the motion becomes very important and the wrists take over.


CJ, I would suggest you pick up a book on general physics and motion and learn a little more about it. I just think you're a little confused as to what is and isn't true regarding making use of gravity. By moving the stick from down to up, you are fighting gravity, not working with it. Gravity pulls everything down, therefore you are exerting more energy to pull the stick away from the ground. The free stroke and similar rebound-oriented methods involve hitting the drum and letting the natural laws of energy rebound the stick for you, so that you don't have to fight gravity and exert more energy than you have to.

There is a slight flaw here, as we don't get the same amount of energy back, which we put in, as some of that energy is converted into sound. As a result of this the wrists do have to provide that extra impetus if you are playing at loud volumes. The hard bit is feeling when the energy of the stroke is expended and the wrist then takes over, bringing it back to the original height. Also, the stick has to go up first, before it comes down. It's like old saying, 'What goes up must come down'...

As regards to the Moeller technique being natural, I'm not 100% convinced, as if it was natural, everyone would do it without lessons. I know that some people have got there naturally, but I'd wager there's more people who never get there. I think it may be the most efficient method for playing single accents followed by a series of unaccented notes, but even then I remember reading somewhere that it was originally designed for one loud accent and the other notes were a later addition. You've got to remember, those old calfskin heads probably didn't have much re-bound, especially if they were wet!!! If that were the case it would have been all wrist.
 
Re: the moler technique

What a great thread . . . .(!?) The truth of the matter is that, like many discussions, the extreme positions are generally wrong and the truth lies in the middle. I agree with CactusJack that the moeller method has taken on some mythical significance, is seen by many as the ultimate and only true technique to accomplish certain percussive goals and has obtained some kind of aura which is not entirely justified. CactusJack is dead wrong, however, that the moeller method serves no purpose at all and should be discarded along with the dirty bathwater. In coming to that conclusion it appears that Mr. cactusjack is confusing the exaggerated motions used as a teaching tool to make sure that the fundamental aspects of the technique are correct with the practical application of the method itself. If you watch Weckl or even Tony Royster - both of whom use Moeller in its appropriate form and for the right reasons - you will see that their use of rebound through very subtle and refined versions of the original moeller motion is vital to their style of playing.

To that same end please watch Keith Carlock - http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Keith_Carlock.html - www.keithcarlock.com - who uses what he describes as a "modified moeller" technique for virtually all of his playing. This includes his playing of ghost notes and his ride patterns. While he does use his wrist, you can see that he has a very loose grip (with fulcrum between index finger and thumb) and uses rebound as an energy saving technique.

So, is the moeller method THE most important technique to master - No. Is it one which is useful and necessary to obtain certain objectives - yes. Are there great drummers who use the moeller method to add to their arsenal - yes. Are there great drummers who use don't use it in its pure form - yes!

The answer my friends lies somewhere in the middle of some of the extreme positions taken above.

Paul
 
Re: the moler technique

I just watched all the videos, As I've said before silly old stuff.
Here's something for you to ponder.
The opposable human thumb is meant for grasping as I understand human anatomy.
So what is the advantage of not using the thumb and index to hold the stick when that's their anatomical function , to grasp. Why try to hold the stick with the weakest fingers instead of the strongest?

You should read the articles that accompany the videos. Particularly in the second article that addresses Moeller as it applies to the drumset, the author specifically addresses the thumb and index/middle finger grip; and advocates using the grip that the music calls for. The two finger grip is used for power. If you had watched all the videos, you should have seen that the author demonstrated both grips.

Truthfully, I learned the way you are advocating, and it does still serve me somewhat. Yes, my wrists got strong learning this way, but I think it is an extremely tense way to play, which leads to fatigue and power and speed barriers. To a great extent, I wish I had never been taught this way as it is very hard to “unlearn.” Since learning the Moeller and freestroke methods, my playing has become more relaxed and I don’t hit the power and speed barriers as readily.

I think good examples of evolving to a more relaxed style are the Bonzo videos on this website. Note in the 1970 videos he is more tense and, more or less, bashing. Contrast this with the 1979 videos where he is playing much more relaxed. In my opinion, he sounds much better in the ’79 videos. Every technique has its place. Closing your mind to other techniques, to the exclusion of only yours, seems counterproductive. Perhaps you should give other techniques a try?
 
Re: the moler technique

First of all, there are two techniques that are completely different the Free stroke (Gladstone) and the Moeller technique, although, they work together!

The Free stroke (Gladstone technique)
''Down than up as I've repeatedly said is the direct opposite of the
way everything on earth moves, don't you understand that?''
''drumsticks are like hammers''

ok, so try (better not) to hit a piece of rubber with a really heavy hammer and at the moment when it hit's the surface, stop the hammer from rebounding. What happens? 1) you absorbe completely all the inertia
2) you brake your wrists because of that...
but the most important thing is - the hammer wants to REBOUND!!! Why would you want to stop it?

The Gladstone tehcnique is based 100% on rebound, you save 50% of the energy because you never lift up the stick, so now you can add these 50% to the downstroke. The result is a stroke with maximum power and minimal effort, the sound is opened and full.

Now, the full stroke position is mostly an exercise, to understand the importance of rebound, although it's the heights of a stroke, and there's nothing wrong to play like that if you want a really big, loud and opend sound! Jojo Mayer showed me a full stroke Gladstone rimshot, it was the loudest thing I've ever heared.
Every surface has atleast some rebound, for example, if your flor tom has 50% bounce opposed to your snare drum, than the most effective and natural way would be to play with that 50% bounce.
When you absorb the energy hat comes from the drumsticks hitting the drumhead, you add strain to your body, which can lead you to injury, also the sound changes, it becomes dry and staccato


The Moeller technique
This technique is a systhem of accents, if you want to play a solid, non-accented single stroke roll, Moeller is not the technique for this purpose.

The Moeller stroke starts from the down position, you pull the back of the stick upwards (the tip of the stick is in contact with the drum head) and then you do a whip ''pow'' there's the stroke, this motion is similar like waving a horsewhip, the energy from the hand is transfered to the horsewhip, you can see a waving motion there, that's the inertia being transfered
Jojo Mayer showing the basic Moeller motion (without rebound) http://drummerworld.com/News/JoJoMayerDVD3.html

The Moeller technique has two options, you can play it with rebound or without rebound

pillows or practice pads?
this is what Jojo Mayer told me:
''Here's my 10 cents on this one:

Personally, I never practiced on pillows. Intuitively it felt not right. It's too much strain on your body to build facilities that way...we are musicians...not athletes.

Pillow practice will train your muscles against resistance and change the balance of the muscles towards slow twitching muscles as opposed to fast twitching muscles...you will build power, yes... Speed ,no. You were right about this (marathon/sprinter)

[edit, the thing I sayed was: ''maybe training muscle mass if wanting to get speed and endurance is not the best way, think of marathon runners and sprinters compaerd to wieght lifters'']

I guess the bottom line is that by practicing on pillows you will obtain a style of playing "throug" the drums as opposed to "out" of the drums. When you practice on pillows you will sound like playing on pillows behind the drumset too!

Dennis, Blackwell or Donati: dry staccato sound. Listen to Omar Hakim, Steve Smith, Morello or Weckl: open singing sound...
All these players have great control, speed and power.....so I guess go for the sound!''

A strong wrist is the key of great technique, but you have to be smart on how to train it, it's more effective to do stretching exercises (free stroke, full stroke position, do the Stone killer exercise for 30 minutes and your hands will fall from being tired) than resistance exercises (pillow practice)


in the end, I'd like to say that there is no right or wrong technique, but there are the natural approach to drumming, from the musical stand point, the most important thing is the sound and it's completely insignificant how you acheive it, but... as a drummer, you want to keep yourself in good shape and prevent yourself from unwanted shock, injuries etc

I had the luck to learn from Jojo Mayer and he compeltely changed the way I play and also changed my musical thinking (but that's a bit off topic for this discussion)
This is how all these Gladstone and Moeller principles look, the master at work...
http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/jojomayerbasel1.html

This dvd is an absolute must have for every serious drummer, do ourselves a favour - BUY IT!! It will end all this discussions


best of luck,
Raymond
 
Re: DIGBY DOODLE

The articles and accompanying videos at the following website are, in my opinion, the most comprehensive history of, demonstrations of, and list of advantages of the moeller. I think one can easily see some advantages to this method.

http://www.digbydoodle.com/Moeller/vintage.htm

Actually, there is something wrong with that guy's technique. His left arm is fine, but his right arm is completely stiff from the forearm down. He is not rotating or pivoting his right wrist, but moving his arm at the elbow to produce a downstroke. That is not good form.

After I saw that, I really didn't have the patience to read through the rest of the website.
 

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Re: the moler technique

Another excellent post from Mr. Bloom.
Thanks Raymond, i've been a bit curious about the difference between moeller and gladstone.
Since this thread is heading this direction heres another question.
What is the difference between a full stroke and a free stroke? Just curious because these two terminolgys are used often here on DW and I always thought they were the same but I get the impression they are different. Could you or anyone please clarify this.

Mike
 
Re: the moler technique

What is the difference between a full stroke and a free stroke? Just curious because these two terminolgys are used often here on DW and I always thought they were the same but I get the impression they are different. Could you or anyone please clarify this.

Mike
Thank you, Mike!

The full stroke is one of the positions of the Free Stroke, there are basically three positions full stroke, half stroke, low stroke

check it out Dom Famularo, he shows all these positions here:
http://www.vicfirth.com/education/drumset/domfamularo/dom4HQ.html
or download:
http://www.vicfirth.com/education/drumset/domfamularo/dom4HQ.mov
 
Re: FREE/MOELLER STROKE

That is the lack of control I hear
when Dom plays. He has no control of the attack
because he has released his grip on the stick and thrown it down at the drum.

I noticed that too, how he lets go of the stick, that is really weird. I don't think Famularo actually teaches that method though, I guess it is just something he does.

In regards to your posts; to me a full stroke is all about volume, the further the stick travels the louder the sound can be. So I bring the stick all the way back after one loud stroke so I can whap the drum again. If I am playing a final loud stroke, I may not bring the stick back up, or I may just let it come back up as far as it rebounds. I have never experienced any tension playing this way.

Regards,

Alex
 
Re: DIGBY DOODLE

Actually, there is something wrong with that guy's technique. His left arm is fine, but his right arm is completely stiff from the forearm down. He is not rotating or pivoting his right wrist, but moving his arm at the elbow to produce a downstroke. That is not good form.

After I saw that, I really didn't have the patience to read through the rest of the website.

It is unfortunate that you stopped after that. There is a wealth of knowledge in the articles and videos. His right arm is not stiff in every video. I believe it was stiff, in the video you mentioned, because of the dotted notes he was playing (i.e. very staccato).
 
Re: Moeller mathod is stupid crap.

Hmm. So you don't actually propel the stick towards the drum?

Hmmm..
maybe you'll start to percieve what I'm saying
but will you be able to feel it?
The first thing to learn is how to lift and relax
and gain control of the attack as it comes down
in reaction to how much energy you expel on
the way up, and as Buddy says keeping a firm grip
all the way. Once you feel that with ease.
You will add the appropriate force on the way down,
by ear for what your trying to play. It's easy if you let
yourself feel the way. You don't have to practice
holding the sticks at different heights to learn how
to control dynamics. It's in your wrists motion up
that most of the force comes from, yes you can add
more on the way down and that is tactile and instinctual.
your ears will tell you if its loud or soft enough and you
respond by sense of touch.
But learning to stab downward as Dom demonstrates
as a fundamental will stiffen you up in subtle ways
that will prevent you from learning what the basic freefall feels like
because you have learned to fire down first in stead of lift.
As I said in the beginning will you be able to feel it.
When your mind tells your hands to play a note, do you lift?
Or have you already trained the muscles to push down?
 
Re: the moler technique

If you'd spent the time taken to write all these words on learning the moeller strokes, you'd have them entered into your muscle memory, and all would have become clear....
 
Re: the moler technique

If you'd spent the time taken to write all these words on learning the moeller strokes, you'd have them entered into your muscle memory, and all would have become clear....

see the whole time ive been reading all these posts ive been practicing the technique.. its doing wonders for me
 
Re: the moler technique

I'll make it as simple as possible.
Up then Down = Good
Down then Up = useless, Contrary to all laws of motion on planet Earth.
Why is this reality so hard for everyone to accept?

Are you kidding me? Talk about a ton of wasted motion and effort. Winding up before strokes? Wow. I shouldn't even be spending my time on somebody that thinks that is a good idea. Is that hard for you to hold your sticks up? I know gravity is real strong. Please tell me what laws of motion support this. FYI, holding the sticks up is not a cause of tension.
 
Re: the moler technique

Are you kidding me? Talk about a ton of wasted motion and effort. Winding up before strokes? Wow. I shouldn't even be spending my time on somebody that thinks that is a good idea. Is that hard for you to hold your sticks up? I know gravity is real strong. Please tell me what laws of motion support this. FYI, holding the sticks up is not a cause of tension.


OMG! i suffer from gravityosityness
 
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