Is it unethical to buy drums made in China?

Merely approaching the terminal stage of free market capitalism in a grossly overpopulated world.

Unethical? - we're all in this together.
 
The transition from agrarian to industrial is usually a messy one. Remember that England and the US were pretty awful polluters when we entered the industrial age, and while we would seem to have cleaned up our act, the fact is we just kicked the mills out of Pennsylvania and sent them overseas. Now it's someone else's problem.

Some of it cannot be helped. Part of what we do as humans is reshape the world around us to meet our needs, and if we're really kicking ass, a few of our desires as well. A lot of that involves digging things up, cutting things down and setting a lot of stuff on fire. Sometimes an animal dies. Every component of every drumset on Earth is made this way, to say nothing of the rest of the things that surround you.

What can be helped is examining how we do this stuff, who really causes the most damage (and it what areas) and what we are willing to pay for it. I'll give you a hint; a smart businessman wouldn't dare cut down all of the maples if he's selling maples. Why? No more maple=no more business=no more money. Guys who sell wood products know that they have to cultivate trees like any other cash crop. The side benefit is that trees really dig CO2...in fact they thrive on it.
 
So far, we've just been shuffling problems to different areas, instead of actually addressing them.
There's a few places left after China, but we're going to have to start getting serious soon.
 
wildbill said:
So far, we've just been shuffling problems to different areas, instead of actually addressing them.
There's a few places left after China, but we're going to have to start getting serious soon.
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I don't think there is a predetermined timeline on it, but we would do better to stop beating each other over the head over nothing, so we can focus on the important stuff and get it done. Surely humanity will benefit. In the meanwhile, forcing us out of the things we find "icky" in the name of a better vision is premature. As much as it sucks to see the toxic effects of our production, it is what we have until the next technological revolution. A little patience will go a LONG way in this regard, and hampering that with a panic that ends up inhibiting our ability to advance to the next stage (by depriving us of the resources we need at this moment) will not serve us well.

If we take the long vision on this, then this time is but a blip, and we need not worry about the ethics (environmental or otherwise) of buying from China. I prefer optimism to panic on this stuff. We will be better at it.
 
It's a valid question.

The west has no right to judge the pollution frankly, but there is the issue of how people are employed and treated. I'm not sure democratic processes/thinking would work in a country with 1.45 billion people. So our view point is different.

It's very hard to avoid Chinese products though, I agree.

Davo
 
Davo-London said:
The west has no right to judge.....but there is the issue of how people are employed and treated.... So our view point is different.
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That is quite an amusingly presumptive statement if looked at in a historical context, but hey, I'll leave it there.

...
 
If we're going to ask that question because we're worried about the environmental consequences, then logically we have to expand it. For example, is it unethical to eat meat? I'm not talking about whether or not you have a "Disney" view of animals, but rather consider the amount of energy, water and acreage it takes to produce a given quantity of protein via beef cattle versus soybeans. We're looking at orders of magnitude increases in energy and water to create beef or pork versus soy or some other plant sources. Then we consider the potential environmental hazards of CAFOs (like lagoons of pig waste accidentally flooding into a local river).

I am not saying everyone should become a vegetarian. What I am saying is that we shouldn't focus our attention too closely on one thing and ignore everything else. In other words, do what you can across the board. Think globally-act locally. Buying a vintage kit locally is great on a number of levels but don't assume that doing so means you've "done your part" as you drive your 12 MPG vehicle to your 3500 sqft McMansion, ready to choke down yet another steak. Of course, there will be people who say that that sentiment is somehow a threat to your "freedom", but if you define freedom as the right to be wasteful and arrogant, I think you have a very strange definition of it.
 
JimFiore said:
If we're going to ask that question because we're worried about the environmental consequences, then logically we have to expand it......
......What I am saying is that we shouldn't focus our attention too closely on one thing and ignore everything else.
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For the purposes of this forum we have the responsibility to keep it drum related, even if we are dealing with tangential aspects of it. Drumming does not exist in a vacuum, so I think it's valid for someone to raise other issues, but there is a line in the sand. Otherwise, it just drifts into politics and flaming and the topic goes bye-bye. If that happens, then NO part of the issue is discussed.
 
I don't like buying Chinese products. Period! Now back to reality. As a 16 year old kid with a fistfull of dollars I would'nt hesitate. Young drummers today get better gear for less money than any of our previous generations. Now back to China. On top of their environmental irresponsibilty, they pay workers an average of two dollars a day. It won't stop until we stop buying it. The only reason they can bring products to market cheaper is that they don't play by the same rules, but then we like our inexpensive toys don't we.
 
The corollary of this is, is it ethical to buy drums made in North America. I dislike the small minded mildly xenophobic tone of this thread.
 
keep it simple said:
So you'll be selling all your stands & taking all brackets, lugs, etc off your nice DW's?
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A point that has been conveniently overlooked, I notice.

I have a mate in the chemical game. I reckon most here would be surprised at just how many raw products that go into everything from glues and lacquers, to cleaning products to plastics, are sourced from China. I know I was astounded to learn just how many of our everyday items originated from Chinese chemicals. For sake of this particular argument, I've kept it purely to common products that are used in drum manufacturing. But the reality is, that aspect alone is but a piss in the ocean.

"Made in the USA" (or anywhere else for that matter) is only true in part........nice to rouse a bit of national pride. But little more than a pipe dream in reality.....because you can bet your bottom dollar your favourite US drum manufacturer is, directly or indirectly, buying something that originated from China, be it a lug or the plastic underneath it. The WMP wrap or the lacquer to protect the stain on your new cherry burst fade.

Is it unethical to buy from China? That horse bolted long ago. I don't think we really given a choice anymore. Globalisation is well and truly entrenched.
 
Pocket-full-of-gold said:
you can bet your bottom dollar your favourite US drum manufacturer is, directly or indirectly, buying something that originated from China, be it a lug or the plastic underneath it.
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Oh, more than just that. With very very few exceptions, all lugs, brackets, legs, screws, etc are sourced directly in Asia, mostly in China. That accounts for way more than 50% of the value content/cost of your coveted made in (insert western country name here) drums.

Nice post Jules :)
 
There is a percentage (i don't remember what it is) of the components that must be made in the country of origin in order to have the Made In stamp. After that it becomes Assembled In, etc.,etc.


When DW and Tama purchased Camco, its full name was the Camco Tool and Die Co. Tama got the name,product lines,shell patents. DW took possession of the tool and die end. They own the dies for casting the old Camco turret lug which is how they end up using it. As far as I know they still make their own. Their stands I don't know about, don't they say made in USA on them?

My set is from '97 and was built in a smaller building ( not the 53,000 sq ft facility) features Keller shells and I know they still made the lugs themselves back then. I'm still not taking all the screws out!

All jokes aside, its impossible not to buy Chinese products. As it was pointed out earlier they are in some aspect of everything now.
 
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Toyota is a Japanese company. They were just fined over a billion dollars for hiding information and lying about the problems with their cars that lead to the several deaths. Yet no one at Toyota is going to serve any jail time. Interesting.

I thought the Japanese had some sort of code of honor? I guess money, and profit, rule supreme everywhere.
 
Pocket-full-of-gold said:
A point that has been conveniently overlooked, I notice.

I have a mate in the chemical game. I reckon most here would be surprised at just how many raw products that go into everything from glues and lacquers, to cleaning products to plastics, are sourced from China. I know I was astounded to learn just how many of our everyday items originated from Chinese chemicals. For sake of this particular argument, I've kept it purely to common products that are used in drum manufacturing. But the reality is, that aspect alone is but a piss in the ocean.

"Made in the USA" (or anywhere else for that matter) is only true in part........nice to rouse a bit of national pride. But little more than a pipe dream in reality.....because you can bet your bottom dollar your favourite US drum manufacturer is, directly or indirectly, buying something that originated from China, be it a lug or the plastic underneath it. The WMP wrap or the lacquer to protect the stain on your new cherry burst fade.

Is it unethical to buy from China? That horse bolted long ago. I don't think we really given a choice anymore. Globalisation is well and truly entrenched.
Click to expand...

From one Pocket to another, you've wonderfully hit the nail right on the head with this post.
 
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