Developing a deep pocket

M

markusjj

Member
I have been playing for 8 years with no lessons and I'm having trouble really setting a deep pocket. This became evident when I video taped myself playing a long to a Michael Jackson song (Don't laugh please). I had decent groove in the beginning but about halfway through, I lost significant feel of the song. Am I overplaying?

I use a metronome once in awhile when practicing but sometimes I just find it boring. I guess I just prefer to play along to songs and add my own chops into it.

So I guess I am just looking for advice on how to develop a good solid feel for the song and working on my pocket.
 
listen to/watch some steve jordan
he has pocket like NO ONE ELSE...

practice with some music with your only concerns being,
1. stay on time
2. no fills
let your groove be the embellishment for the song.

try to focus on the small things in your groove. when i am looking at the big picture, i tend to get bored and overplay.

also, on my snare head, i wrote "the GROOVE is HERE." (steve jordans dvd title. shh...)
its a good reminder to keep things solid and simple.

i have been playing for just about 10 years and this pocket/groove thing has only been a concern of mine for the past year or so. if you have any questions in particular about this, pm me. id be glad to help.

(ps. pocket looks and sounds so badass. everytime i go into gc and mess around, i keep it simple and rock solid. with, yes, small cool fills, but for the most part simple, and i get tons of compliments. you look like you really have your game together. plus, its about your sound more than chops or anything else. this is a musical instrument for crying out loud!)
 
Like TB says, lots of listening, practice, metronomes, a deep understanding of what behind, on , or ahead of the beat really means.

... but here's the kicker, IMO: Either you have it or you dont.

I think lots of drummers can play solid time, but cant tickle your secret groove G-spot. Thats because they are very experienced and very good, but weren't born with it.

Steve Jordan IMO, as an example, is born with it.
 
markusjj said:
I use a metronome once in awhile when practicing but sometimes I just find it boring. I guess I just prefer to play along to songs and add my own chops into it.
Click to expand...

You have to get over the mindset that a straight beat is boring. Therein lies a conceptual issue that you revealed. Pockets can be repetitive, but playing repetitive is not a negative connotation. You just keep hitting the same notes and after a while something clicks and you experience the hidden power of repetition, it's a trancelike state in a way. You can't achieve that if you are doing a fill after every 4 or 8 bars. It's hard to keep "on track" without thinking, "I must do something more here, it's too boring." The second you have that thought is the second your pocket gets a hole in it. Think in terms of simplicity. I know exactly how you feel, it is a stage you go through on the way to learning how to achieve pocket. Michael Jackson's "Billy Jean" is a great pocket song. Just play it through and don't add any fills whatsoever, even when the record does, it's good practice in restraint, which is one of the ingredients you need to play a good pocket. Instead of thinking fills, concentrate on making your beat feel as good as sex.
 
I agree with Larryace. Yes, playing steady with deep pocket has beauty. Thats how I try to play along the records enjoying the whole song.
However, I always thing every rock song has a Keith moon version drumming in it. Too bad he is no more.
 
my advice would be stop listening to yourself and start listening to the music.

try to absorb yourself in the music your playing, not in the technical difficulty of what your playing. if your focus is on the music, and and making the music feel great you should get to a point where you won't want to play any more than the groove. it will just feel that good you won't want to disturb it. and then from there depending on the music you'll hear spaces in the music where a fill will totally work for the song or that moment and go for it and it adds to the music.

with your focus on the music and playing the right groove or fill at the right time you will develop a deeper pocket. if your thinking about technical things or trying to showcase things you've practiced or something hard you can do it will probably take away from the overall songs feel not add to it. pocket is also about heart i think, and if you love what your playing that will translate into your grooves.

steve jordan is an amazing example of pocket, and billy jean has a great groove. actually the whole thriller album is great to play along to for groove.

i think you can be born with something special(jordan,gadd,chamberlain), but pocket and groove can be had by anyone with the right attitude and understanding.
 
One of my favorite grooves, and I'm sure many others will concur, is The Funky Drummer. It's iconic, it's fat, it's the embodiment of groove. And it's also pretty much the same thing through the whole song. In my opinion, to play with groove usually implies keeping it simple, and keeping your time tight, so the problem could be that you're overplaying. Try charting out a song, something simple, and take note of the fills that are being played and when they're being played. It's sometimes the case that the drummer will play only a couple of ghost notes, of a crash at the end of every 4/8 bars, then maybe a couple of toms after 32.

If you find the metronome boring, how about you take the chart I'm sure you're going to write out, play through it once or twice with the metronome, then a couple of times with the music, then back with the metronome, and so forth. It's good that you're filming yourself playing, as you could try comparing the way you play with only the metronome and the way you play with the music, and also note hesitations in fills, dropped beats (though I'm sure there wont be any) and the feel of the song.

Sorry if that was a bit long winded, just my two cents (or pence, where I'm from).
 
How's about you start playing with other people? Playing with other people helps your groove psychologically because you think "I've gotta keep time here or else the guitarist is gonna get frustrated" (or something to that effect). It also keeps you focused.
 
I'm just guestimating, but here's something I've noticed with some drummers.
They get louder during the song.
They're technique begins to fade during the song because their caught up in the emotion of what they are playing (which is not a bad thing but has to be limited/controlled)
. ie: they stop striking the drums with a wrist motion and use their arms, which most of the time results in a too loud snare hit which throws off the volume balance of the strikes you are making with your other limbs. sometimes the kick drum gets louder which again unequalizes the volume.
Think of it this way, your body as being a 4 channel mixer, with each limb representing a channel. If one channel increases in volume it overpowers the other channels and doesn't sound good. Sometimes this is a good thing and sometimes a bad thing. Basically dynamics b/w limbs is what gets you in the pocket, its the optimum volume from each limb that makes it sound so sweet, that perfect mix which variates as things go alone. Ghost notes etc.
Here's a 2 pager from Hal roach, he explains it well and also adds a great exercise for what you are dealing with.
 

Attachments

  • RoachExercise.pdf
    40.1 KB · Views: 484
Last edited:
Dedworx said:
my advice would be stop listening to yourself and start listening to the music.

try to absorb yourself in the music your playing,
Click to expand...

This is right on. "Pocket" isn't the same every time - it's relative to what's happening around you. Listen to what the other rhythm section players are doing and try to place your notes where they make the most sense relative to what they're doing. I.e. If the guitar player's rhythm ends here, put your backbeat there. A pocket is the combined effort of everyone in the band working to propel the time forward. It may mean playing in tension or unision with other parts, sometimes simultaneously. Before you can have deep pockets, you need to have big ears.
 
markusjj said:
I have been playing for 8 years with no lessons and I'm having trouble really setting a deep pocket. This became evident when I video taped myself playing a long to a Michael Jackson song (Don't laugh please). I had decent groove in the beginning but about halfway through, I lost significant feel of the song. Am I overplaying?

I use a metronome once in awhile when practicing but sometimes I just find it boring. I guess I just prefer to play along to songs and add my own chops into it.

So I guess I am just looking for advice on how to develop a good solid feel for the song and working on my pocket.
Click to expand...

Play a four-piece set! (just kidding, but that's what the rabid four-piecers here will tell you).

If you can find it, study Drum Wisdom by Bob Moses.

Do not play the snare and bass drum more than one time each per measure in a song you are working on. Make this work with a variety of different songs. By doing this, you will be developing your ability to distill a rhythm to its essence, which is what pocket playing is all about. Do not play other things in the spaces, but really focus on landing fewer beats where they really belong.
 
Once I started playing with a click live and then playing in front, right on and behind the beat; I found that once I could consistantly play behind the beat (but not vary the tempo), my "deep pocket" improved immensely. My band commented on this very thing and it made me feel great.
 
If you want to watch some guys with GREAT pocket grooves, watch some of the youtube vids of Aaron Spears, Gerald Heyward, and other well known gospel drummers. You can't beat them in this area because this is what they are known for. Gerald Heyward even has a few videos up of him teaching different ways to approach it as well as tips on what to do. Hope it helps.


-Scott
 
SGT_Drummer said:
If you want to watch some guys with GREAT pocket grooves, watch some of the youtube vids of Aaron Spears, Gerald Heyward, and other well known gospel drummers. You can't beat them in this area because this is what they are known for. Gerald Heyward even has a few videos up of him teaching different ways to approach it as well as tips on what to do. Hope it helps.


-Scott
Click to expand...

aaron spears does too much to be pocket imo. he has sick groove, but thats not pocket.
 
drummerchick435 said:
Playing with other people helps your groove psychologically because you think "I've gotta keep time here or else the guitarist is gonna get frustrated" (or something to that effect). It also keeps you focused.
Click to expand...

I agree...................... however, Pete Townshend never got frustrated though!.
 
tbmills said:
hell, play a two piece set. snare, bass, hats, crash/ride.

youll find you can express alot more with subtle timing changes than you think you can.
Click to expand...



Definitely good advice. It seems a lot of people just HAVE to hit all the toms just because they are there.
I used to play at an acoustic open mic blues night with just my hi-hat, ride cymbal and snare. Playing such a scaled down 'kit' has helped me a lot to this day You might try to force yourself to use only 3 sound sources too; it may sound limiting, but it will also eventually make you very creative in your grooves and fills. And as mentioned above, having 'big ears' helps.
 
markusjj said:
I use a metronome once in awhile when practicing but sometimes I just find it boring.
Click to expand...

This is certainly not helping. If you are serious about playing drums you must work with a metronome.

I believe that the best pocket drummers fully commit to the groove. To commit to a groove one must think of the music first. I play with several drummers and it is obvious when a drummer serves the music as opposed to making the music serve the drummer. Believe me, the former, not the latter is always the more enjoyable to play with.

If you find playing with a metronome boring, you should perhaps think of it as a guide. It may be that it hinders you because you are unable to play what you wish to play without going out of time. If this is the case, the only remedy is to work with the metronome. Start simply and at a slow tempo and gradually increase it over time as comfort allows.


If you want to be a good drummer it is important to do the work.

Good luck.
 
If you like playing to music than get Bernard Purdies Master Drummer Volume 1

It has only his drum beats!! i'd plug it into my headphones, and than try to copy his beats, that really helped me understand and "feel" them out.

also, try playing open handed (if your right handed), that will build a LOT of dynamics real fast.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top