Some thoughts on time feel

Larry

"Uncle Larry"
To me time feel is the #1 most important thing, above everything else, except possibly playing at the appropriate volume for the situation. Tempo is one thing, but meter is where time feel comes into play. It's how one interprets the tempo. Time feel is so important to how your band feels. I can't help noticing the different attitudes concerning time. Most defer to the drummer. But the ones (leaders) that don't....have to be played to in order for them to be happy. Hey, no problem, that's what I do. But different people feel things differently. Some are more on top. Some go beyond that to uptight. Some are right in the middle, and some tend to lag. Then there's the ones you have to tune out so they don't screw you up. So it's all over the place.

How many are in bands where the tempo/meter is dictated by others? How many are in bands where you dictate the time?

I'm in one of each. In my trio, I have to follow the leaders tempo and meter, almost no exceptions. I start 2 songs out of about 150.

In my 6 piece band, I set the pace.

In my experience, people feel time differently. The leader of my trio is a Time Nazi. He is really metronomic. Most of the time it works, but in about 15% of the songs, IMO, he's a little extreme about it. I like a more organic feel sometimes, a little elasticity. Yea, that's not allowed in my trio. Zero elasticity. Oh no. It's like marching to to an uptight cadence sometimes. Not all the time. It's still my favorite band. We do The Band's "The Weight". It's just too fast. There's real feel between the notes of that song, it's not metronomic. Except when we do it. But it doesn't suck too bad because the guy plays on such a high level. Still, if I had it my way, I would approach it less uptight and slower for sure.

Now in my 6 piece, if I start it too slow, or too fast, or speed up or slow down....it's my bad...which is better for me for my own personal development. In my trio, the second I lag, I just F'd up. In my 6 piece, if I lag, they lag with me lol.

I'm not complaining in any way, I am just pointing out what I encounter in my little tiny world.
 
I start or count in half or more of our tunes. There's no formula - it just works out the way it works out.

I find things tend to sound best if I forget about tempo after the start and just play the song. If I focus too much on tempo things get stilted.
 
In the best bands, leader or not, everyone is responsible for the time. It's nigh impossible to stay completely isolated whilst other around you falter, or the other way around.

I'm typically an on top player. I like urgency in most faster paced stuff. Then I reverse that in slower songs. I'm not skilled enough to place the entirety of my playing ahead or behind the beat consistently, so I use the snare to do that for me. Drag a little, on top a little, but keep the 1/4 note pulse going right on the money, + anchored with the bass drum.
 
I have all the songs on my tempo advance app on the iphone . I click on it and it shows me the tempo. i click it with my left foot when someone else starts (so they know). when I am the one starting, I count it off and voila. Only problem is that when someone else starts off (most often the guitar player) I click with my left foot and he doesn't listen to it and do his own thing. I just stay with what he starts with and then blame him for starting too slow ;)
 
I'm not metronomic, not by a long shot, and I can start the same tune in very different tempos depending on the day or the mood.
Besides, I think different moods should be channeled into music. If I'm feeling a lot more rowdy, why not express it in my playing that day?


I'm also not very solid as a time keeper, but I don't really think of that as being negative.

I currently play in a duo with a guitar player, and it's all about elasticity and bending the time together.
Whatever happens, the most important thing is that we understand that we are in the same boat. The keyword here is "together"


Rubato, baby!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempo_rubato
 
Whatever happens, the most important thing is that we understand that we are in the same boat. The keyword here is "together"

Being together is probably the most important thing, whatever the tempo or the desired time feel, having said that, it's how we (I) interpret the feel, the pulse.

Often it's dictated by the other members and how they feel the time, the style of music has a lot to do with it too, some requires a relax time feel and some requires some urgency and energy, but it only falls into places if we are all together, creating a continuous flow, even through a little sloppiness, accuracy in the ears of the audience is not only time accuracy, it's togetherness accuracy, it makes the music alive, with emotions, tension and release and feel.

There's individual time feel, how each and everyone of us feel a particular time/pulse and there's the whole band feel... you try to reach that perfect chemistry were the feel is right for the song/music you're playing as a band, at least it's the goal to reach, easier said than done.
 
That is also very true, some good points there.

It's also worth noting that the other person in my band is my brother and we only play original material, so my situation is maybe slightly different than most, as we do have a connection built in already.
It certainly allows for freedom of expression, and I totally, wholeheartedly take that freedom and run with it!
 
Uncle Larry
2 bands... I count in about 75 percent of the songs. The important thing is that someone takes the time to "count in" during a live show!
I believe drummers are in the best position to do so...given that we are siting, not dealing with equipment, tuning and for the most part not talking with the people.
I am always looking ahead at the tail end of the song we are playing... Next song tempo, do I start a drum intro or count full band in! Name the song and count in and make sure I have everyone's attention!
Denis
 
poika - I thought you sounded really together in that video you posted the other week.

I am probably a time nazi - I don't think as humans we can be perfect but if we aim for perfection then the result is almost perfect - organic enough that it feels nice. And that's the new perfect.

I think the way you play something is more important than what you actually play, so much so that I realize lately my drumming is a bit watered down and I need to play catch up in some areas.

I don't project this attitude onto band members as much as I do myself but I recently left a band because they had crap time feel. I accept some error but when someone's not listening and it starts making me sound bad then I'm out.
 
In nearly every one of my bands, I am asked to count in for most of the songs. I'm not a strict metronomist, and my time can be a little elastic. I'm with Lar -- if I screw up the tempo, or alter the tempo too much, it's a learning point. I don't do it too much any more, but I used to be quite bad at speeding up slower songs and slowing down faster songs. However, if you have a band full of great timekeepers, this happens fewer times, in my experience.
 
poika - I thought you sounded really together in that video you posted the other week.

Thanks! I can hold my own for short perioids, but when I listen back to rehearsal takes, especially on slower and longer tunes, the tempo sometimes really goes up and down and up again.
The main thing in my opinion is the situation you're in - is it suitable for the time to bend in this particular gig/song/chorus/etc?
In some of the songs we do it is almost necessary to speed up and slow down, in order to build and release tension. It almost sounds bad if we don't, yet I don't think it is a conscious thing to do so. It just happens.


Again, the context is everything. If I were auditioning for Sting, he'd laugh his butt off :D
 
I see the construct of Band, as a team. I would prefer to see the drummer be the keeper of the time and the one who defines the time....and also the one that is responsible for the feel of the song. If it is a cover, it should have an authentic feel....the pulse of the kick drum does a lot to influence how the pulse of a song feels...Roadhouse Blues or Pride and Joy are good examples....those songs have a wonderful feel and we don't want to muck it up by playing too fast or playing all four on the kick. Yuck

I see it like an NFL team...offense or defense....offense mostly. You got one play caller and that same individual is responsible for organizing the team for each play...then the talent of each player on the team works within that framework to execute at a high level and deliver the best possible result.
 
I disagree with that. I think that if the other members are following the drummer, then basically their heads are not in the same moment in time.

In an ideal situation, everyone should know where they are in relation to everyone else. Not just in relation to the drummer.

That's how I see it
 
I would prefer to see the drummer be the keeper of the time and the one who defines the time....and also the one that is responsible for the feel of the song.

I see it like an NFL team...offense or defense....offense mostly. You got one play caller and that same individual is responsible for organizing the team for each play...then the talent of each player on the team works within that framework to execute at a high level and deliver the best possible result.

completely 100% disagree

and so does every master I've ever studied with

once a tune is counted off the time is in the room .... and everyone behind or holding an instrument needs to ride that time like a wave.
every person playing an instrument is standing on the same surfboard on that wave and are all equally responsible for the time and the feel of the tune .

if I am in a jazz situation for example.... and I feel expressing myself in a certain moment requires me to completely stop, it should not affect one person in the room one bit

it should be the same for every musical situation

if someone I am playing with feels they need to rely on the drummer for time you best believe I'll be finding someone to replace them with the absolute quickness

we should lean on each other

I count on a bass player just as much as he counts on me ...same goes for everyone creating any rhythm , melody, and harmony

this whole "the drummer is the time keeper" idea is a myth and a false sense of security for drummers playing with mediocre musicians to lean on
 
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this whole "the drummer is the time keeper" idea is a myth and a false sense of security for drummers playing with mediocre musicians to lean on

I think sometimes even drummers use this as a false sense of security as well. I've seen something like an attitude of "my time is the only time", and I can tell that it inhibits them from really listening to what's going on. And by that I don't mean just keeping track of where you are in a song, but really listening to the feel and inflections of what the musicians around you are playing.
 
I think time feel relies on everyone in the band.

I've often heard people try to explain "playing on the top (or bottom) of the beat" and I've usually heard them say something like, "it means playing just a microsecond ahead of the metronome," or something like that. I've always felt this was a really poor description, because what is important is the relationship of the musicians to one another, not their relationship to the click. EVERYONE has to be aware of time feel.

I will agree that good drummers can affect the sense of urgency (or lack of urgency!) with the use of microtiming within the kit, dynamic relationships within the kit, attack, etc, but these things seem much harder to quantify when you are trying to explain them. They are for me, anyway, mostly because I just do them without analyzing them too much. And they still rely on the other musicians to be working from the same page.
 
I'm in a couple of 3 piece bands that use some backing tracks so the SPD dictates the tempo.

When I play without the SPD, I will follow whoever is singing/playing/fronting the song. IMO, they need some slack as they are doing all the heavy lifting.

Difficult chord changes or lyrics will tend to affect tempo and the rhythm section will be more effective if they follow rather than push to try to keep a strict tempo.

I've learned that playing without a metronome/click is way way easier. The musicians can all make the minute adjustments on the fly and still sound really tight, even though it is impossible for them to be 100% on for a whole song.

I've also learned that the metro/click settles tempo discussion rather quickly and that slow songs (like 80-90 BPM) can be really hard for me to be strict on.
 
I get leaned on a lot in the garage band. Even if I have nothing to do with the intro of a song, they want me to count it off. It's annoying to a point, but still funny and odd all the same depending on how I look at it. I've stressed verbally to everybody that everyone is a timekeeper, but I guess there is something special about the way a drummer counts. Maybe it is a need to lack accountability on their part for the tempo. They just put it all in my hands, thereby making me ultimately responsible. I usually get it right, but I'm not perfect. I don't have this problem with the studio guys. It's not even an issue.

As for my playing, I do find that in recordings my lagging snare is getting better. It tends to lag at slower BPM's, so listening back right after we play is helping me shore up some of these issues up a bit.
 
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