Custom cymbal repair project

Hey Crew,

As you all know, (from my previous posts) I'm on a major quest to learn all I can about cymbal repair, customization, and maybe even (someday) learn how to completely AND permanently repair cracked cymbals to their original (or nearly original) state and possibly even the original sound. (the sound restoration is probably a pipe dream)

That in mind, I was fortunate enough to get a BUNCH of cracked and damaged (various brands and sizes) cymbals after posting an ad on Craigslist- one of them was a 20"/51cm Sabian B8 ride with a HELLUVA perimeter crack that splayed up two "wing" type protrusions from the damage. (this will be a long post, so bear with)

Since the cymbal was really thick, cutting it down with metal shears was impossible. I fabbed up a makeshift jig that allowed the cymbal to rotate as it was being cut with an angle grinder with a diamond blade to keep the perimeter dimensions true. One cut to make a kerf, and another pass to do the full-depth cut. (see the pics) After cutting 2" off of the perimeter, I did a 6-way grind on the edge- a 90, then two 45's, then two 30 degree grinds, followed by a belt sander rounding (at about 22 degrees) to true the cut perimeter edge, and match the original cymbal edge rounding angles. (kind of like lapping and facing valves for an engine)
After that, I used Jasco Gel paint stripper to both remove the Sabian logos, and (partially) remove some of the dark spots and patina flaws that were in the cymbal's finish. (left it on for EXACTLY 6.5 minutes) Followed that up with 00 steel wool dressing, a good warm water wash with Ajax dish detergent, and then two hand-rubbed polishings with Trick brand drum/cymbal polish. (You''l see in the attached pics that the Sabian logo left a "ghost" imprint/shine.)

This process left me with about 3.8 ounces of B-20 bronze to UPS to my bro Jeff at OceanFront Engineering for metallurgy and research on the metal, and another ounce or 2 for me to experiment on with brazing/heat treating/ soldering/ torch/ and heat treating in my humble garage. Also left me with almost a 1/2 ounce of B-20 metal shavings/dust to experiment with as an alloy, or as a surface additive for brazing and welding.

I've spent upwards of 1K on the metallurgical stuff so far, and hope my costs will not go too much higher than that. Just wish me "luck" or "good fortune" on all of this. I almost feel like I'm searching for the cure for cancer, or something--it's out there, just needs to be discovered.

Man, I really hope I get some concrete results (eventually) after all this work.

Cheers,
C. P.

Pete, a word to the wize. Should you succeed in your venture, DO NOT describe the method on these pages or anywhere else for that matter. You've invested your time & hard cash and deserve the spoils. I have a lot of experience in protecting industrial processes & designs and have seen good R&D commercially go to waste due to pirating. Any release of information will preclude you from patent registration. Even worse, someone else may be able to patent your process if they can keep quiet about your previous release of information.

I'm sure everyone here will be both very interested & delighted should you succeed. It's a great story, but don't describe the eventual path, even in broad terms. You never know who's lurking. Even once you've succeeded in the method, and you come to market with a protected process, I still wouldn't describe the process in too much detail. Just provides ammunition to those who may have an interest in killing off your venture. I'm sure you can imagine who they might be.

Take care Pete, it's a shitty world out there. Good luck, KIS.

Concrete Pete said:

...This process left me with about 3.8 ounces of B-20 bronze...

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I'm confused - aren't Sabian B8's made from B-8 bronze?

other than that - it looks like you've got a handle on things - good luck with it. I'm interested to hear more results as you move forward.

Good luck to you pete! I know a lot of people are telling you it cant be done, but if no one ever questioned certain practices and just excepted them as they are then we would never make any progress.

BTW have you talked to any journeyman or master welders? perhaps they could give you some insight.

Hey Crew,

CNW- good catch! Yup, that's B8 mix bronze, not B-20. I'm sending samples of about 4 different cymbal metals to my engineer bro Jeff.

KIS- no need for concern, but I appreciate the words for the wise. Yeah, it's costing me- but so far, it's been well worth it. Succeed or not, I'm getting one hell of an education, and understand cymbal metallurgy/ production damn near completely. (still way more more to learn...)
For what I've spent thus far would probably have cost 5x that coming from enrolling in a tech school.

I'll keep posting stuff to share with all that are interested, but I won't be giving out too much info, because.....HEY, this is costing me! (heh heh)

Kidding aside, I've learned a lot from the crew here, and I'd like to return that favor.

Some of the things I've found out lately-
Cymbal metallurgy and production techniques vary, but not that much, except for the differences between "quality" and "came with the kit" ones. ("dresser" cymbals", in other words)
Most cymbals are made from copper/tin or copper/tin/other alloys.

"Bell Bronze" is the most common, named for the same mixes used in bells, gongs, etc., and has been used the most successfully through history for tone and durability. Bell Bronze is usually combined of 60%-80% copper to 20%-40% tin. (Zildjian, Sabian, etc...)

There's also malleable bronze, 4%- 9% tin to 96%-91% copper, sometimes combined with other metals.

Older Zildjians also incorporated: nickle silver, nickle bronze, common (early coin grade) silver, and (rarely) other metals.

Cheaper cymbal companies have also formulated use of: silicon or aluminum bronze, manganese, zinc, and 60-61-grade aluminum.

Most B-8 thru B-20 bronzes have a melt point at 1740 degrees.
Lathing may remove as much as 77% of the original fired cymbal mass, in the production process., which is THE most critical part of the construction.

Mig and tig brazing have been (so far) the most successful ways to do full-penetration repairs on common/specialty alloy bronze without changing the metal properties including: stress fracturing in affected repair areas, bond quality, base metal compatibility, ease of dress machining, maximum discoloration control, and workability. (clean-up, post production, surface machining)
High tungsten gas mixture and slow material (wire) feed is essential to surface bond and penetration quality.

OK, that's your lesson for the day! Pop quiz in the morning after recess!



Cheers,
C. P.

Wow nice work on that Sabian. Now I was told more than once that cymbals CANNOT be welded anyhow-anyway. Something about the heat from the welding process changing the metallurgical content being that cymbals are forged or cast or whatever... I forget now.

I have a Paiste Reflector Sound Formula China that was my absolute favorite cymbal till the crack affected the volume too much to use anymore. I have pics of it on the cymbal repair thread somewhere...

I kept this cymbal to either cut it down or fix it but havent done anything until I m sure of what to do or have an idea of what will work best. I ve never seen or heard a china after being cut down enough to have no more "flange" so I m holding off on that. Anyone know?

So if you ve found a way to weld cymbals let me know because I miss my Reflector. Thanx for the lesson too btw : )

if you figure it out, you could have one hell of a cymbal shop!

crdirtRider856 said:

Wow nice work on that Sabian. Now I was told more than once that cymbals CANNOT be welded anyhow-anyway. Something about the heat from the welding process changing the metallurgical content being that cymbals are forged or cast or whatever

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Correct, heat destroys the temper of the cymbal making it just an ordinary flapping piece of metal. Although if you were to re-hammer the cymbal to regain the tension that the original hammering would have you might be onto something. Although I would think the heat from cutting the cymbal alone would he enough to remove the temper from the edge.

The steps of creating a cymbal make all of it's metal one piece working together. Welding cutting heating and cooling would make for parts of the cymbal working AGAINST itself, most likely making for it's early demise after so much labor to repair it.

But who knows, you might just fall into a method that gets it done!!

Either way, good luck!!!

Hey Crew,

Just an update- it's WAY late, it's been a long day, and I just might have stumbled onto something-- time will tell.

Trying to find a way that would incorporate a few different gasses into a Tig or Mig welding/brazing process. Tig is Tungsten Inert Gas, and if the T-gas could be combined with a metered delivery of nitrogen (either partially liquefied or carbureated ) the result might just serve as a controlled atmosphere PLUS a controlled temperature climate for bronze repair. (B-8 to B-20)

I understand that some sulphur-based alloys may react with certain gasses, possibly producing toxic results. (as in stuff like cyanide- like heating/welding certain galvanized metals) Trouble with refrigerant- type gasses like nitrogen is freezing before or during delivery, even when combined with other gasses.
How to meter or adjust the deliver pressure, temperature, and mixture of several different gasses combined into a welding shield/temp controlled atmosphere is a mystery right now.

Any engineers or PhD's here want to help out?
The quest goes on.....And ALL help appreciated.

Cheers,
C. P.

Www.cymbalholic.com contains lots of stuff pertaining to cymbal modifications, including the basics of cymbal hammering.