Has tradition been holding drummers back for 100+ years?

..... an offset or Schleshmen pedal (though I've yet to demo one fully, the brief meeting I had with one was quite promising however)
I sold my Off-Set and bought a Sleishman.​
 

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My setup of drums is more of a mindset for me. I like the analytical Travis Orbin mindframe that comes with my Orbinated setup (also, it looks pretty imposing!). I also like the flow that I get with a typical (much better word for that than normal, IMO) four-piece. And there are fills I can only get into with a typical five-piece. And of course, there's the old floor tom only setup. There are tradeoffs to each.

Though, for the record, my usual setup is just an Orbin combined with a typical four piece, so I'm eating and having my cake too...
 
Bill Bachman plays a somewhat symmetrical kit, with snare and hats in the middle.

I do both open and crossed, but seems more natural to me to play hats and ride with my right hand.

Edit to acknowledge the OP refers to Mr. Bachman's Speedy Hat remote stand, so they already are aware...

Thanks for the mention! Here's a quick video of me recording some prog stuff with my set-up:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erOMibiB4Ms

Playing that crossed over would be extremely awkward and I'd have to exchange some Moeller whip strokes for wrist turn and such. It's definitely freeing to never be limited by crossing restrictions, once you're set free your vocabulary gradually opens up with the new possibilities.

And, if you're interested here's the trailer for the album (the 4th song sample or so is the one sampled in the previous video): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wte2RNEXHqg

If any drummers buy this album (please don't illegally download it or "share") and try transcribing the drumming, many parts will be extremely hard to play on a standard set up.
 
Well, Bill Bruford approached this and has his kit set up in what I would consider an 'Alien' fashion... This is also coming from the guy who says he's 'forgotten how to play in 4/4' :-/

Play how you're comfortable - don't make a song and dance about it ;-)
 
So I think the reason I am so passionate about this issue is because I feel drumming needs some progress. Sure the old jazz drummers played better on a traditional kit, the style lent to that set up. Obviously most drummers play that way and they are the ones who took wood cylinders and made us all fall in love with it. But most children learning drums aren’t going to want to play jazz, or probably even ‘rock’ as we call it today. We could never say because they haven’t invented it yet. But I would bet my bottom dollar that it won’t change much if we don’t show them something new to play with. So far the main arguments for a traditional set up are that it feels better/is easier, that it’s cheaper, and that it makes sharing drums easier.

I’ll give you cheaper for sure, but by that token why would you have rack toms? Or a ride? We could simplify all the way down to just a snare drum if price was the most important factor. Not that there is anything wrong with simplicity but I’m sure many of you reading this use rack toms and many other things that are ‘unnecessary’ to play the base beat of the music you’re playing. We use those things because they make our drumming more interesting and fun.

As for sharing drums it is also easier to play on a kit that looks more like your own than not. So I suppose to some that is good as well. Personally I really enjoy getting to a gig to find out the kit I will be playing on has only a snare and floor, or has four bass drums, or no High Hat (that was an interesting night). It’s things like that that keep me interested in the art. Without it I would have quit and joined the circus or something.

And lastly what seems to be the main point and the one that kind of bothers me; it’s more comfortable. I get it, I do. But if you really look at it objectively would you feel the same if you started on a symmetrical kit? Or do you think if you played that way for as long as you have been playing standard and discovered the traditional set up right now you would drop the symmetrical kit today? I think if you are truly serious about the drums then moving out of your comfort level to do something special and new should be a primary focus. A few years back when I was first seriously thinking about how the whole art of drum kit drumming came to be I had a teacher who would only teach me open handed (a stark contrast to my first teacher). He opened my mind with a very simple question, what can you do cross handed that he can’t open handed? With only a few exceptions he was very right, however, I was horrified at the prospect of having to relearn almost 10 years of drumming. So I started looking into remote high hats and offset pedals to get the best of both worlds (though I still practice open handed playing a bunch because… why not?). Anyway that is only my personal preference and that means jack to you. As many have pointed out (rightly so) I said a symmetrical kit is better than the traditional. And yes ‘better’ is a horrible word in these situations because it goes against the very thing about music that I love most, IF IT’S RIGHT TO YOU NOTHING ELSE MATTERS. And if you only play drums for fun then forget everything I’m saying, do your thing man. But personally I want to improve on what has been done before. As I said I love all the old jazz beats, bebop, soul, reggae, ect… but they already did that and if you don’t want to change because you have played a certain way for a long time, or you want to be just like Buddy Rich then please move aside and let the next generation through.
So my next question is this, what beats, fills, patters ect can you play on a traditional set that I couldn’t using a symmetrical set up? For reference let’s say we use Mike Mangini’s (sym) vs Jason Bittner's (traditionalish, it's hard to find kits that big that aren't symmetrical) for more complex things or Bill Bruford's (sym) vs Buddy Rich's (tdl) for a more minimalist approach. (I'm looking for advantages to traditional that don't include the ones I mentioned at the top, I don't feel those are very good reasons)
 

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Zackie 1

I think to answer your last question we would have to compare playing styles and determine which one is more efficient. And I'm sure you know that that is always a losing game.

Besides, the style of music played creates many different possibilities and makes the analysis very complicated. Not to mention the fact that any drummer would play better with what he is comfortable with.

I would however make this statement. For me the hi hat needs to be very close to the snare so I can play complex patterns with the hi hat and snare.

In the next few weeks as I play around with some new set up ideas, thanks to your thread here, I may be able to video tape my playing using some different set up configurations.



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Zackie 1

I think to answer your last question we would have to compare playing styles and determine which one is more efficient. And I'm sure you know that that is always a losing game.

Besides, the style of music played creates many different possibilities and makes the analysis very complicated. Not to mention the fact that any drummer would play better with what he is comfortable with.

I would however make this statement. For me the hi hat needs to be very close to the snare so I can play complex patterns with the hi hat and snare.

In the next few weeks as I play around with some new set up ideas, thanks to your thread here, I may be able to video tape my playing using some different set up configurations.





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I'm not really talking about a precise calculation of how long it takes to get a hand from one part of the kit or anything like that. I mean what patterns (specifically) would be more difficult or 'impossible' (I know nothing is impossible) on a symmetrical kit rather than a traditional one. An example would be the beat for don't stop believing by Journey. It is played open handed and would be very difficult to do cross handed (I would recommend learning it, it's a great pattern.) Obviously that's about hands and not set up but is the kind of thing I'm looking for.

(Edit) Glad I inspired some experimentation. :)
 
I can see you wanting to do this but why is it important to you that everybody does this?
 
I can see you wanting to do this but why is it important to you that everybody does this?

As I've said many times on this thread "please don’t get me wrong, if you play traditional, or matched, ‘standard’ kit, or symmetrical it is truly how you use it that matters" so please stop saying I'm trying to force people to do this. I find it very important however that they have a good reason. I understand not wanting to re-learn years of playing but that doesn't mean it gives you more out of the instrument it only means you don't want to learn something new. That's what this whole thread is about, expanding on what we do.

(edit) that was the intention of the thread anyway
 
It's cool, I'm not out to upset anyone. The reason I personally don't want to re-learn is the benefits don't seem to outweigh the expenditure. I'd rather put my energies into playing the music deeper, listening deeper, feeling deeper. The mechanics of it all....I pretty much already have a system that works for me, and I don't feel limited. I play open when it makes more sense to. My feeling is I don't want to expend years or however long it takes to get back to where I am already. That to me is not moving ahead, that's changing course midstream. More interested in the music than the mechanics. This falls under the "if it aint broke, don't fix it" category in my head.

But man have at it. If it ignites your burners, that's a great thing.
 
It's cool, I'm not out to upset anyone. The reason I personally don't want to re-learn is the benefits don't seem to outweigh the expenditure. I'd rather put my energies into playing the music deeper, listening deeper, feeling deeper. The mechanics of it all....I pretty much already have a system that works for me, and I don't feel limited. I play open when it makes more sense to. My feeling is I don't want to expend years or however long it takes to get back to where I am already. That to me is not moving ahead, that's changing course midstream. More interested in the music than the mechanics. This falls under the "if it aint broke, don't fix it" category in my head.

But man have at it. If it ignites your burners, that's a great thing.

So what about people learning drums for the first time?
 
It's cool, I'm not out to upset anyone. The reason I personally don't want to re-learn is the benefits don't seem to outweigh the expenditure. I'd rather put my energies into playing the music deeper, listening deeper, feeling deeper. The mechanics of it all....I pretty much already have a system that works for me, and I don't feel limited. I play open when it makes more sense to. My feeling is I don't want to expend years or however long it takes to get back to where I am already. That to me is not moving ahead, that's changing course midstream. More interested in the music than the mechanics. This falls under the "if it aint broke, don't fix it" category in my head.

But man have at it. If it ignites your burners, that's a great thing.

Larry, I agree with you 100%. I can play my drum set blindfolded and I don't want to change that. In fact I just started singing while playing and I need to read the words of the songs so I can't afford to make any drastic changes. And I am too old to start learning some new difficult technique.

However, my personal situation is a little bit different. Although I learned to play just after I learned to walk I have been away from drumming for many many years. I am just discovering all the new drumming equipment that has been invented in the last 40 years.
I'm like a kid in a candy store.

To the point here, when I play rock and roll with the snare and hi-hat I have always had to reach out with my right hand and play the hi-hat reaching around my left hand so that my sticks don't bang into each other. This causes some other problems. So I am now experimenting on how to mitigate these issues. Last night I repositioned the pads on my digital setup and it feels like I may have found a great new way to set up my acoustic set !!!!!!

I agree that Zackie 1 seems a bit too enthusiastic for others to try new things, but he has pushed me to think about solving a long standing problem I have had. (So at least he helped one drummer. LOL )


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so please stop saying I'm trying to force people to do this.

It does read that way though mate.....at least it has to me.

Not trying to be a prick, but I've deliberately stayed out of this thread because it's comes across as excessively preachy and one sided. Thought it may just be me.....but it appears I may not be alone. Just some food for thought. :)



But as to the wider question. No. I don't believe that tradition has been holding drummers back for 100+ years. Just look what some guys manage to achieve.

Does Mangini's set up make him a "better" player than Vinnie? More creative? Does it actually allow him to highlight Vinnie's short comings? Or are they just different, yet equally enthralling in their own way? Does Mangini's set up show us what's possible for one man and Vinnie's allows us to see what's possible for another?

The only thing that would hold drummers back is a lack of creativity in their own right. Whether that be the lack of creativity to expand on their ideas on a traditional kit......or the lack of creativity to adapt the kit to suit their own purposes and individual style. Either way, a "one size fits all" approach is not necessarily the best way forward for all players, all the time.

And personally, I'm glad for it. It's what allows some guys to shine....regardless of how their kit is set up.
 
It does read that way though mate.....at least it has to me.

Not trying to be a prick, but I've deliberately stayed out of this thread because it's comes across as excessively preachy and one sided. Thought it may just be me.....but it appears I may not be alone. Just some food for thought. :)



But as to the wider question. No. I don't believe that tradition has been holding drummers back for 100+ years. Just look what some guys manage to achieve.

Does Mangini's set up make him a "better" player than Vinnie? More creative? Does it actually allow him to highlight Vinnie's short comings? Or are they just different, yet equally enthralling in their own way? Does Mangini's set up show us what's possible for one man and Vinnie's allows us to see what's possible for another?

The only thing that would hold drummers back is a lack of creativity in their own right. Whether that be the lack of creativity to expand on their ideas on a traditional kit......or the lack of creativity to adapt the kit to suit their own purposes and individual style. Either way, a "one size fits all" approach is not necessarily the best way forward for all players, all the time.

And personally, I'm glad for it. It's what allows some guys to shine....regardless of how their kit is set up.

Thank you! You've just said almost everything I was feeling throughout reading the thread and now I don't have to figure out how to put it into words without sounding like an ass.

One thing though:
I feel drumming needs some progress

So what you're saying is you think drummers aren't progressing because they're using, in your opinion, a primitive technique? I hope I'm just severely misinterpreting this statement. What you may consider progress may just be change to others. And not everything in the world needs to change for the sake of changing. Some things just flat out work for many and don't need any fixing.
 
I feel there is a lot holding my drumming back, but playing "crossed over" isn't one of them! Or is way way way down the list.

You mentioned the Journey record "Don't stop believing". For that rare pattern when I need to use the toms as part of the pattern, I'll just play remote hats. I did try left handed, but for me it puts my left hand in an awkward position.

Steve Smith does it left handed, but it does look a little awkward to me (it looks how it feels when I try and play this way):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uf9R6u1IMIQ

If I didn't have a million other things wrong with my playing, I might put more time into learning to lead with my left hand...

Also, I don't think you give us enough credit. I'm sure these thoughts occur to most of us and we all probably think about setup and try things out when we can.

I personally find playing crossed comfortable a lot of the time, and having the option of remote just gives you the best of both worlds. But that is just me; for you it is different and that's a good thing. We are all different, we all have different ideas. Unfortunately we live in a world now where everyone is so worried about what others think, that we all follow the most popular way of doing something. Its become the same with music; the likes of Pop-Idol is designed to polarize, and it seems to work.

Back on topic - sometimes there is a better way of doing something yes, but if you watch the greatest musicians they all seem to have there own way of doing things and result is their own personality on the instrument rather than some bland carbon copy.

As for traditional, after seeing what guys like Buddy Rich and Tommy Igoe can do, I really don't think it is a barrier. Tommy (and Buddy I suspect) can play both with ease but choose to play trad for a lot of things because it suits it. I'm rubbish at trad but can still appreciate the very different feel it gives especially for jazz style music. The stick just feels lighter and more alive in the hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9esWG6A6g-k

Sometimes a way may be technically better, but perhaps does not invoke the right feeling when playing music.

I really don't see the big deal in symmetry either; I don't see what advantage it brings in either holding the sticks or drum setup. It's almost a waste; why mirror everything on the left if you already have it on the right?

If I closed my eyes and listen to 2 drummers play on a track, one with a symmetrical kit and one a more "standard" kit, I'm not convinced I could 1) tell the difference, 2) prefer the symmetrical setup.

It's about making music at the end of the day, and possibly most top end drummers show restraint compared to what they may do in a solo situation, as opposed to being held back.

I agree sometimes its good to take a step back and look at things though. Do what you feel is right for you and you will have your own style and personality on the kit.
 
Not sure we've been held back for 100 years. 100 years ago, we weren't playing the hi hat and ride at all like we are in modern times.

I am naturally left-handed, yet I play a "right-handed" kit. Mainly I decided to learn that way from the beginning, foreseeing that in most situations where there would be a house kit, it would most likely be set up that way. It was mainly a decision not to fight against the majority. I tend to ride with my right hand, whether over on a larger cymbal to the right, or the hi hats on my left. I used to keep my hats really high (kind of like Dave Grohl does) in order to facilitate some roominess. Over time they came down, but I still probably have a good 8-10 inches between hi hat and snare top.

My fills still tend to offer my left-hand leading, which makes for interesting positioning at the ned, but I have found that simple things such as paradiddles and other double stroke rudiments help me free up whatever hand I need for a downbeat.
 
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