Jazz Drumming, and its benefits for rock

dahoros

Junior Member
I picked up Art of Bop Drumming by John Riley and I've been learning jazz hoping it'll improve my rock drumming. I've gotten better over the past month or so but I'm starting to think that I'm becoming a better jazz drummer and not a better rock drummer.

Without directly incorporating jazz beats into my rock style, is there any point?
 
I wouldn't say it's pointless. It's not something you can pick up in a few weeks though. Not sure if it's something you can get from a book either. Listening to a few thousand hours of jazz would seem to be in order. The great rock drummers who were raised on jazz in their formative years, Mitch Mitchell and Ginger Baker for instance...those guys were steeped in jazz first.... and were good at it....before they played rock. And the jazz influence came through beautifully in their rock playing.

Now if you are a rock player first trying to learn jazz to further your rock drumming...I don't know if it's the same, at least in the beginning. You probably still think like a rock player. Not saying that's good or bad, and it's also just a guess, but for jazz to come through, I think you would have to have at least an elementary jazz vocabulary in place. Totally the opinion of me, a non jazz player.

The guys who can incorporate the jazz frame of mind into rock drumming, IMO are more musical drummers than your straight rock drummer, generally speaking.
 
The guys who can incorporate the jazz frame of mind into rock drumming, IMO are more musical drummers than your straight rock drummer, generally speaking.
Quoted for truth!

I've always been a bigger fan of jazz drumming than jazz music. By a long shot. So this rings particularly true for me.
 
I've always been a bigger fan of jazz drumming than jazz music. By a long shot.

I've never thought about it like that before. I'd have to concur. With exceptions, as always. I need chords. So Oscar Peterson stuff I can sink my teeth into. Jazz with vocals is easier for me to get on board with too. That's what I love about blues too, chords. Specifically the rhythm guitar chords. Same with jazz chords. They just grab me.
 
Quoted for truth!

I've always been a bigger fan of jazz drumming than jazz music. By a long shot. So this rings particularly true for me.

Now that you put it into words, that's the truth for me as well!

To Dahoros,
I think the main thing for you is that as Larry mentioned, you probably still think like a rock drummer. The benefits of learning to play jazz drumming will be evident when you learn to play jazz drumming correctly - I'm not saying that you are or not at this point, because I haven't seen you play. Probably the most important difference between rock and jazz drumming are the dynamic levels. In Jazz, the ride/hat pattern is the loudest, followed by the hihat 'chick' on 2 & 4, and the snare (no rimshots until you know when!), and with the bassdrum as quiet as possible.

But by 'loudest' I don't mean 'smash the ride!'. It is the most prominent sound in a jazz pattern, so it needs to stand out. Your 'default' dynamic for playing jazz should be in the mp-mf range at your loudest point until you understand the musical requirements for what you're playing, and this will only come by listening to and playing along to jazz.

From a technical perspective, practising jazz patterns will improve your independence, dynamic control, and overall technique in ways that straight-ahead rock drumming simply cannot. And once you have more than a few weeks of practise under your belt, you'll start to notice little subtleties about how your playing has changed. When you start to become a better drummer over time, you'll have differences that wouldn't have been there if you hadn't started playing the jazz patterns.
 
I picked up Art of Bop Drumming by John Riley and I've been learning jazz hoping it'll improve my rock drumming. I've gotten better over the past month or so but I'm starting to think that I'm becoming a better jazz drummer and not a better rock drummer.

Without directly incorporating jazz beats into my rock style, is there any point?

Art of Bop Drumming is great, but it is very bebop-specific-- I think the methods used with Syncopation can be adapted to other styles more easily than AOBD can. Also maybe get yourself the Dejohnette/Perry book, and find a pdf of Drum Wisdom, too. None of the books are really set up for you to plunder hot licks from them; you have to actually be into it, and spend a lot of time with it to improve the way you want. If you don't decide to like the music, take it seriously, and do the suggested listening, yes, you're probably wasting your time.
 
Of why Steve Smith's drumming was so great with Journey.

Or why Greg Bisonette gets so many great gigs.

I was quite struck by Jimmy Chamberlain's work on the first Smashing Pumpkins album. It was neat because there was so much jazz-influenced-drumming bleeding through. It had an almost uncanny feel to it.
 
Drumming is drumming, blending different styles and genres is what makes music interesting. I take inspiration from any style of music, as long as the pattern or the fill pleases me I will use it,or modify it so I can use it.
 
Jazz is a completely different mindset. Rock has no mindset. Metal music especially. If you can use a jackhammer you can be a metal drummer. There are intricacies in jazz you won't find in rock, yet rock music can sure use the input. Listen to Krupa on SING SING SING. He wasn't going for speed lioke rock drummers, he was grooving with a more tribal sound.
 
Ooh, them's fightin' words.
 
Jazz is a completely different mindset. Rock has no mindset. Metal music especially. If you can use a jackhammer you can be a metal drummer. There are intricacies in jazz you won't find in rock, yet rock music can sure use the input. Listen to Krupa on SING SING SING. He wasn't going for speed lioke rock drummers, he was grooving with a more tribal sound.

I can use a jackhammer. But I can't play fast metal.

But I can play. A bit.

I must be abnormal.
 
why put yourself in a box and say I am this or that ?

it's all drumming .... so anytime you are playing , if you care about it you are improving yourself as a player of the instrument

having the mind set of... hey I'm working on this jazz stuff but my rock drumming is not improving ... is just completely silly to me and you are putting way too many boundaries up and creating obstacles for yourself


my advice....

play drums
play music
don't rely so much on books to give you the answers
use your ears and trust your instincts

stop thinking so black and white

you will be glad you did down the road
 
Jazz is a completely different mindset. Rock has no mindset. Metal music especially. If you can use a jackhammer you can be a metal drummer. There are intricacies in jazz you won't find in rock, yet rock music can sure use the input. Listen to Krupa on SING SING SING. He wasn't going for speed lioke rock drummers, he was grooving with a more tribal sound.

In any genre you play for the song, thats the mindset. Closing your mind because the music you chose is "better" than everything else is a sure way to stagnate. Drumming is drumming.
 
I think all non-rock drumming can ultimately prove to be beneficial to rock drumming. The great pioneering rock drummers were so innovative because they hadn't spent a lifetime listening to nothing but rock. Jazz, Motown, Blues, Soul, or whatever else they may have been into, ultimately permeated its way into their creative expression. Whether it be a lick, phrasing, or just a general feel, it all helped shape the end result. No reason why that can't hold as true today as it did then. The issue lies with those who never choose to broaden their horizons to begin with. How can you expect to ever come up with something different if you keep basing your stylistic choices off the same old thing?



If you can use a jackhammer you can be a metal drummer. .

Yes. In much the same way that if you can use a keyboard you can type idiocy.
 
Listen to Krupa on SING SING SING. He wasn't going for speed lioke rock drummers, he was grooving with a more tribal sound.

If Gene were alive today he would have been a rock drummer. Jazz players today do not display that type of showmanship. Could you imagine Antonio Sanchez getting up behind the kit and playing on the silverware?

And as far as speed, have you ever heard of Buddy Rich and Louie Bellson? Both displayed blistering speed on a nightly basis. It was a big part of their show.

This was all before rock was even born.

It's convenient to label that which you do not like or understand as inferior but you sound a wee bit out of touch.
 
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