seamlessly switching between singles and doubles around the kit

rotherdrummer

Senior Member
do you guys have any exercises which would be good for practicing switching between singles and doubles (around the kit) when playing fills in songs? i've got kinda stuck in a rut playing the same covers with my band week-in-week-out and none of the songs have any fills that incorporate double strokes (i basically just play single 16th note type fills or basic triplets, sometimes incorporate the feet, but nothing too fancy)

i'm the first to admit that i'm not an overly technical/speed drummer like half of you guys, and i don't really want links to 100's of books and dvd's to study technique, i'm just curious if you guys have any decent suggestions for exercises or just wanna chat about ideas if you're in a similar rut!

thanks
 
i'm gonna be honest 8mile, i bought stick control years ago and never really did anything with it. i opened up the cover and thought "i have an hour spare to play my drums, i'm gonna jam along to metallica or whatever". it just looks overly complicated and long winded. would you mind briefly explaining how you go about using stick control effectively?
 
That's all that's often needed.

For doubles, I guess som sort of roll on the snare and accents somewhere else. Can be toms, but crasch, splash, rim shot, china, whatever. Next is to do the same sticking but see if moving some double to the toms or somewhere else might work. Then maybe bassdrum substitutions for the same thing.


I often do a routine with my students where we take the simplest 8 note fills and just add flams and doubles. Like:

R L R L

becomes lR L rr L

or R rL R ll



Nothing revolutinary, but you can take any fill you like and see how you can spice it up like that. Flams can be done on both 1 and 2 surfaces. It's endless and can turn the most basic fills into sounding pretty hip and more dynamic while still leaving the same space in the music.

For the other musicians, they probably can't specify it, it just sort of adds that extra little thing where it feel like a "real" drummer, like using ghost notes and so on. It has a more unified feel and flow.
 
Stick Control has multiple uses. People generally start out using it as a hand conditioning tool.

Another thing you could do is just take one sticking pattern at a time and move it around. Milk each one for what it's worth.

You can also e.g. substitute R with the BD and interpret L freely or as alternating hands.

There are a million ways. The point is to pick one and work one one thing enough so it actually leads to some new practical vocabulary.

Be patient and have fun.
 
I guess my first question is why you'd worry about 16ths around the kit using doubles.

Not to sound snarky at all, but I'm thinking practically nobody does this, and probably not on any of the original recordings you're covering.

I mean, there might be a musical reason one would want to - for example, sometimes I'll do left hand lead around the kit because it forces a bit of a Ringo vibe in my playing, but I would never have thought to do that otherwise. And even there, it's not something I work on; I can tell when it's working because it sounds right.

Not to say that it's a bad thing to work on since anything you practice can have an application somewhere else later, but usually it's more musical and even to play 16ths around the kit using singles.

But if it's really something you want to work on in the absence of a specific purpose, best way to go about it is to simply shed on it with deliberate practice. No getting around that.

Still, sounds a bit like going for a solution to a non-existent problem.
 
thank you all so much for your comments. i really appreciate it. i'll try to explain in a little more detail what i'm trying to achieve...

unfortunately, i'm struggling to think of any good examples off the top of my head where it's singles in to doubles or vice versa, but i can give you a few songs that i would probably struggle to play the fills using singles alone so would like the option to seamlessly bounce out a few doubles...

slayer - seasons in the abyss - fill at 1:09

queen - fat bottomed girls - fill at 2:53

motley crue - wild side - fill at 0:11

metallica - fuel - fill at 0:58

i'm not naturally gifted when it comes to drumming with regards to speed or dexterity! i'm not bothered about playing death metal, but obviously there's situations (like the songs above) where i may need to play a fast fill or a quick drag and at the moment i'm struggling, so i'm really keen to get in to stick control and reap some of the rewards!!! i appreciate it must be a valuable tool because everyone raves about it, but i guess in the past i've just found it a bit overwhelming for a guy who's got limited amount of time to practice (full time job, 3 year old kid, keeping the mrs happy doing shopping stuff or whatever, playing with the band, etc.... you know how it is!)

don't get me wrong.... i have spent many months of my life practicing... but perhaps the exercises i've been doing haven't really targeted my weaknesses (such as singles to doubles, hence this thread)

any advice/suggestions would be appreciated. thanks again
 
A basic traditional approach is one page 1 min each exercise pr. day. You can bump up the metronome over time, but condition + control should be the main concern.

All wrist.

This means 24 mins pr. day

The thing with Stick Control is that it's old, can seem dry and boring and there's often this longing for some modern quick fix. Truth is that it covers most things and just works.

It is a sport. As with running, someone has come up with some refinement to get better results, we have better shoes and so on, but it's still mostly putting one foot in front of the other, keeping time, tracking progress.



You can just make your own exercises too. It's not really neither about the what or how, just that it gets done, preferably in good form. It can be really simple:

Lets say full stroke singles for 15 mins constantly of:
2 bars 16ths
2 bars 16th note triplets
2 bars 32nd notes

End with like a 1 minute sprint staying on the 32nd notes.

If you're not tired, bump it up a click or two the next day.

Then if you want to switch it up and get creative do e.g 1 bar of singles and one bar of doubles.
 
i'm gonna be honest 8mile, i bought stick control years ago and never really did anything with it. i opened up the cover and thought "i have an hour spare to play my drums, i'm gonna jam along to metallica or whatever". it just looks overly complicated and long winded. would you mind briefly explaining how you go about using stick control effectively?
I would say that just turning to page one and working through the exercises on that page alone will give you a big increase in facility transitioning from singles to doubles.

I don't think it's complicated, really. In fact, you're supposed to play each exercise 20 times before moving on. So you can practice this stuff on a pad while watching TV or listening to music.

1.jpg
 
do you guys have any exercises which would be good for practicing switching between singles and doubles (around the kit) when playing fills in songs? i've got kinda stuck in a rut playing the same covers with my band week-in-week-out and none of the songs have any fills that incorporate double strokes (i basically just play single 16th note type fills or basic triplets, sometimes incorporate the feet, but nothing too fancy)

i'm the first to admit that i'm not an overly technical/speed drummer like half of you guys, and i don't really want links to 100's of books and dvd's to study technique, i'm just curious if you guys have any decent suggestions for exercises or just wanna chat about ideas if you're in a similar rut!

thanks

I second the Stick Control suggestion, but here's what I'd do with it.

1. Choose a sticking pattern (e.g. RRLL)
2. Choose a number of strokes to be played per surface (e.g. 1, 2, 3, 4....8...)
3. Choose 2, 3, 4 or more surfaces and move the sticking around between them. (e.g. 4 surfaces like SD + 3 Toms) Once you've played the chosen number of strokes on a surface, you move to the next surface. Don't pass GO, don't collect $200.
4. Make patterns/shapes.

E.g. for four surfaces:

i. A square or circle clockwise beginning from any drum.
ii. A square or circle counterclockwise beginning from any drum.
iii. An "N" (Start on either end of the "N")
iv. An "L" (SD-T1-SD-FT or T1-SD-FT-SD) or a backwards "L" (MT/FT/SD/FT)
v. A "Z"


Once you've done just drums, incorporate the hihat and other cymbals, etc. That should get you sufficiently comfortable using any particular sticking around the drum kit. Some shapes are going to be difficult with certain stickings (especially LH lead or alternating patterns like the paradiddle inversions) but that'll force you to be fast moving between drums and learn to get your opposite hand out of the way, etc. But, once you've figured out what really works to get you from one place to another without too much fuss, practice those movements even more.

Strive for evenness of rhythm and tone. Aim for the center of each drum at first and try to move as efficiently and deftly as possible. No excess tension, looping paths between surfaces, etc.
 
thanks again to everyone who has responded. i have a couple more questions if you don't mind...

- initially i'm not gonna be able to do the exercises at the same pace i.e. i'm going to be able to play RLRL much faster than RRLR. does this matter? because i'm going to have to stop to keep changing the bpm on the metronome! can the exercises be done individually? or are they supposed to follow on non-stop i.e. the metronome needs to be set to the same speed for each exercise so you can play the full 24 exercises without stopping?

- if it's ok to stop and change the bpm per exercise, is the final goal to be playing them all at the same speed before progressing to the next page??

- and i take it the double strokes shouldn't be bounced or moeller, just 2 full strokes with the wrist?

thanks!
 
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thanks again to everyone who has responded. i have a couple more questions if you don't mind...

- initially i'm not gonna be able to do the exercises at the same pace i.e. i'm going to be able to play RLRL much faster than RRLR. does this matter? because i'm going to have to stop to keep changing the bpm on the metronome! can the exercises be done individually? or are they supposed to follow on non-stop i.e. the metronome needs to be set to the same speed for each exercise so you can play the full 24 exercises without stopping?

It doesn't matter. Either way works fine. But, keep track.

- if it's ok to stop and change the bpm per exercise, is the final goal to be playing them all at the same speed before progressing to the next page??

No, it's to improve the control and efficiency of your hands.

- and i take it the double strokes shouldn't be bounced or moeller, just 2 full strokes with the wrist?

thanks!

That depends on the tempo and your goals.
 
ok thanks!

another daft question!... looking over those exercises at work, i think my main problem will be keeping up with the sticking patterns i.e. my hands will probably want to play faster than my brain can actually absorb the patterns. if i have to slow it down so much to understand the sticking, is this beneficial to my actual hands?!

sorry for the bunch of dumb questions, but it's stuff like this that has always deterred me from using stick control :(
 
if i have to slow it down so much to understand the sticking, is this beneficial to my actual hands?!

Yes. It's how you develop control. Ultimately it'll be vitally beneficial to your hands.

Play it as slow as you need to in order to absorb the pattern. Speed it up as you become more competent at a given tempo.
 
ok thanks!

another daft question!... looking over those exercises at work, i think my main problem will be keeping up with the sticking patterns i.e. my hands will probably want to play faster than my brain can actually absorb the patterns. if i have to slow it down so much to understand the sticking, is this beneficial to my actual hands?!

sorry for the bunch of dumb questions, but it's stuff like this that has always deterred me from using stick control :(

Whose hands are they? Your hands don't do a darned thing your brain doesn't tell them to. Luckily, we have a little bit of control over what it says to them.


One of my teachers once said, "You can't play slow enough to impress me." I took that to heart. If you need to slow something down to give your brain a chance, you do. If you have to pull something apart so that you're playing individual motions completely devoid of time or rhythm just to get them in the right order, then you do it to give yourself a chance to digest and understand. There's no rush. In fact, hurrying will usually take you somewhere you don't want to go and you're liable to forget something.

The book is called Stick Control, not Stick Speed. The primary point is to develop a strong brain-to-hand signal and to develop the musculature involved in propelling a drum stick. And the first half of that has nearly zero to do with tempo. Rather, it has everything to do with calm, attentive but relaxed focus. Take your time, but put 100% of your attention into putting the strokes in the correct order using relaxed and anxiety-free motions and I guarantee you'll be able to start upping the tempo before you know it. Speed will arise from relaxation and control.

What's your hurry? You've waited this long, surely a few more days or weeks won't kill you.
 
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i'm not interested in speed as such, i'm quite happy to take things slow in order to develop, i just want to make sure i get it right this time....

my plan is to spend little time understanding the sticking pattern and identifying a comfortable bpm for each exercise. then once i've absorbed it, i'll spend 1 minute on that exercise before moving on to the next one. i'll repeat this for all 24 exercises and do this daily for 2 weeks. how does that sound???

my final question!!!... these are just example speeds to illustrate the point, but if i can play some exercises at 120bpm, but i can only play others at 117bpm, do i just keep upping the tempo of both so they develop out of sync? or do i gradually work on increasing the speed of my slower exercises to bring them inline and then up the tempos together once they're at equal?...

i.e. increasing out of sync...
exercise 1: 120bpm, 121bpm, 122bpm, 123bpm, 124bpm
exercise 5: 117bmp, 118bpm, 119bpm, 120bpm, 121bpm

OR do i do this...

i.e. waiting for weak exercises to catch up...
exercise 1: 120bpm, 120bpm, 120bpm, 120bpm, 121bpm, 122bpm etc
exercise 5: 117bmp, 118bpm, 119bpm, 120bpm, 121bpm, 122bpm etc
 
Question for you guys. If you were to use stick control to help with doubles like I believe you guys are suggesting would you play RLRR as single, single, double? Is that what you guys are recommending? Play the repeated strokes as doubles?

And by double I mean using a controlled bounce to get two strokes instead of using two strokes if that makes sense.
 
Question for you guys. If you were to use stick control to help with doubles like I believe you guys are suggesting would you play RLRR as single, single, double? Is that what you guys are recommending? Play the repeated strokes as doubles?

And by double I mean using a controlled bounce to get two strokes instead of using two strokes if that makes sense.

nah, not as standard. i think they're saying use controlled movement with your wrist initially i.e. 2 full strokes..... but if you wanna go faster and practice other techniques, such as a bounce or moeller, then you can use the book to do that also
 
And by double I mean using a controlled bounce to get two strokes instead of using two strokes if that makes sense.

Two successive rights (or lefts) by very definition is a double stroke.....whether you use controlled bounce, fingers, moeller or two distinct wrist motions to achieve it......if you play what's written, you're playing a double stroke. It's that simple.

But in trying to address your question, it very much depends on the tempo. At slower tempos you simply have to make two distinct wrist motions in order to have even sounding notes. Similarly, at much higher tempos two distinct motions becomes a limiting factor in how fast you can play a double stroke. So the answer is both.....depending on what's required.

Pretty much why the old school way of teaching rudiments or other sticking patterns was to incorporate practicing them from open to closed to open (slow-fast-slow): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dst0AdVB21Q As doing so allows you to figure out how best to facilitate the motion at various tempos.
 
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