once again.....

New Tricks

Platinum Member
I don't get out to often but I went out last night to catch a set in a typical dive bar close by.

And once again, the drummer was playing WAY WAY too loud.

In my view. the vocals are #1 in pretty much every song. They are at least 50% of the song. The instrumentation behind the vocals is the other 50%

In a 3 instrument band, the instruments are mixed equally and will change a bit according to the song.

Typical of what I experience, this drummer was DOMINATING the mix. The guitar and bass would have had to turn up a full 100% to make the mix proper and then the vocal mics would not have been able to keep up without feedback.

The guitar/bass/vocal mix was great. Loud enough for rock and roll but it didn't stress your ear drums.The drums however were playing at 2 to 3 times too loud, 95% of the time. The 5% that was close to the right level told me that he could tone it down by simply using a lighter touch.

Something new I noticed that is probably also typical. His fills were ALWAYS much louder. Even if he managed to get close to the right volume, he would ALWAYS beat the hell out of the fills.

ALso typically, he played way to much fill. This would be fine, especially in a lot of 3 piece R&R, if the volume issues didn't make them stand out like a festering boil on your forehead.

He was a competent drummer but hasn't learned how to play within the mix. His only options are to turn everything else up 100% or for him to ease up.

So much for the rant. Now for the question. Do I tell him/them? Their bass player is a friend of a friend. Do I try and help them out or just let it go? I like to help and I like to fix things but I can certainly mind my own business.
 
I hope it was not my band you were listening to... LOL
Sometimes I play too loud, but I am constantly listening and holding back on how loud I play.
I set up in the corner, so the drums really project.


Boy, that is a tough question. I think you could mention that the band sounded great but because of the venue the drums were too loud. This kind of puts the blame on the drummer and the room.........


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Let it go. Drummers hardly listen to one another for advice, especially if he doesn't know who you are. Just vow to never do that yourself and move on.
 
I hope it was not my band you were listening to... LOL
Sometimes I play too loud, but I am constantly listening and holding back on how loud I play.
I set up in the corner, so the drums really project.


Boy, that is a tough question. I think you could mention that the band sounded great but because of the venue the drums were too loud. This kind of puts the blame on the drummer and the room.........


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No Jim. You guys have it figured out by now :)

Bu I'm not exaggerating when I say that 9 out of 10 drummers I see do the same thing.

I just don't understand it. Cant they hear when they go out and listen to bands? Maybe they think it's supposed to sound that way?

And, if I do talk to anyone about it, I've studied How to WIn Friends and Influence People :)

I don't always use those skills on the internet but in real life, I'm quite charming.
 
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The interesting thing is that the drums, like other unamplified instruments, have instant volume control. It is very easy to control the volume of the drums while you are playing.
Drummers should be able to play with a great range of dynamics.

I think bands need to rehearse set up in a circle so that they can learn how to adjust the playing volume of each instrument. A musician has to learn to mix well with the other instruments in a band setting.

I guess it is easier to play drums by just banging away as hard as you can.

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A few months ago I was out with some friends at a local joint. The band was playing Classic Rock. The drummer had cannons for arms and he played a Vistalite which as you all know is about as loud as drums get. The room is only about 1000 square feet. Every hit was like a sledge hammer driving a railroad spike! Even the singer was asking him to back down.
To top it off, he somehow managed to play Zep's The Ocean without the odd time sig measures??? I didn't think that was possible :)
I don't know how the band managed to play along with him.
The guitar player never once stopped shredding, not even for a measure! :)
The singer liked to drop the F-bomb and say every politically incorrect thing that he could think of at every possible chance that he could in between tunes. :)

My friends who were with me are experienced musicians and singers. Robyn (who was in the original Broadway cast of Annie) looked at the rest of us when the band had stopped. We didn't have to say a word, we just swallowed up and walked out.
 
I think it took me yr's to learn how to play softer. Mainly because I didn't want to play softer. My band plays pretty soft at rehearsals (we haven't played a gig yet) so I've be working at it and it's coming along quite well. They asked me to play louder the other night. I couldn't hardly believe it. So I played a little louder and they all thought it was great. I'm still not playing like I use to, all or nothing. I try to play according the venue. In my older age, I think I've got a pretty good handle on it. Something I refused to do in my younger days.
 
I had the same experience a month ago. I went to a restaurant bar to see a band and the drummer was playing way too loud. After about 10 minutes I left.

I wouldn't mention it to the band unless they asked me for my opinion.
 
I don't know if that (drummer too loud issue) is typical to certain styles, but I rarely see that issue in the jazz venues I've been to. But I mainly patron reputable bands and venues - Vitello's, Baked Potato, Catalina Club, etc. Actually, the Baked Potato makes it routine to drive the whole band a notch or two above unbearable. I don't go in there unless I'm wearing ear plugs LOL.

Jojo is playing at the Nublu in NYC the next three Monday's I think. Anyone going to that?

Steph
 
One thing I learned, just because the stage is large, it is generally a better idea to set up tight as a band. This was learned by doing it wrong many times. Guys tend to make use of a big stage and spread out the amps, this usually causes a very lost sound, no adhesion. Tighten up space wise will tighten up the band.
 
Sometimes it's difficult to tell how loud it is, if the drums are mic'd. It can sound like the drums are hard to hear on stage and can be very loud in front. Sometimes it's the other way around, the drums are loud on stage and quiet out front.

Also, the drums might sound subdued in the practice space and then sound way too big and open when brought to a new space, even without mics. If you don't have time to fix the drum sound, or if you're sharing the backline, there's not so much you can do.

I've played with bands who wanted me to play as loud as possible. This was melodic indi-rock and the girls who ran the band kept telling me to play louder. This was with with loud birch toms, a heavy 24" beech bass drum and ludwig bronze snare.
I've also been told that I was too loud with a little bop set, and I was playing so lightly with small sticks. That was a fuzz-folk band.

So, it's not always the drummer. We do try to compensate.

Sometimes the over-loud drummer just hasn't yet fulfilled the need to show the world their awesome chops. Then again, sometimes they never will.
 
It is very easy to control the volume of the drums while you are playing.

I disagree. I think that learning to control dynamics in drumming is one of the more difficult things to get for most drummers. I find it especially difficult to play very fast tunes quietly. For slower stuff, or jazz, sure... No problem. Even for most rock it's easy to just watch your stick heights and you'll come across quieter.

Another problem I sometimes run into is that things like the bass drum or certain percussion instruments can also be more difficult to control at low volume... Often ending up sounding like they are on a different dynamic plane than the rest of the playing.
 
I guess it is easier to play drums by just banging away as hard as you can.

I can relate to this. I've been there and I'm probably still there to a degree.


I think it took me yr's to learn how to play softer. Mainly because I didn't want to play softer.

Same here. Until recently, I didn't realize that the drums were the loudest instrument on stage. I thought I was banging hard in order to keep up with the amps. Now I know it's the other way around.

I try to play according the venue. In my older age, I think I've got a pretty good handle on it. Something I refused to do in my younger days.

Same here. Drummers are kind of slow huh?


I don't know if that (drummer too loud issue) is typical to certain styles, but I rarely see that issue in the jazz venues I've been to

Im going to go out on a limb here and say it is specific to R&R music :)


This was learned by doing it wrong many times.

That seems to be the most common way to learn things :) The only reason I wanted to talk with the band about it was to lessen their learning curve.

Sometimes it's difficult to tell how loud it is, if the drums are mic'd. It can sound like the drums are hard to hear on stage and can be very loud in front. Sometimes it's the other way around, the drums are loud on stage and quiet out front.

There is no question about it. I'm assuming he is simply unaware.


So, it's not always the drummer. We do try to compensate.

True but, if you don't know you are doing it wrong, you won't try to compensate.


Sometimes the over-loud drummer just hasn't yet fulfilled the need to show the world their awesome chops.

That is the worst case scenario and the reason I don't want to bring it up.

I disagree. I think that learning to control dynamics in drumming is one of the more difficult things to get for most drummers

I agree with the disagreement :) It is still sometimes difficult for me. I have trouble controlling a snare that is tuned tight. and getting cymbals to crash properly with a soft touch.

Also, from my experiences, it's difficult for a lot of drummers. I went to a club a couple months ago and heard the drums from the parking lot, 400' away. It was an outdoor stage and the first thing I heard was the drums, dominating the music. I thought maybe the drum sounds just carried more but when I got in I realized it was just another heavy handed drummer.
 
I disagree. I think that learning to control dynamics in drumming is one of the more difficult things to get for most drummers. I find it especially difficult to play very fast tunes quietly. For slower stuff, or jazz, sure... No problem. Even for most rock it's easy to just watch your stick heights and you'll come across quieter.

Another problem I sometimes run into is that things like the bass drum or certain percussion instruments can also be more difficult to control at low volume... Often ending up sounding like they are on a different dynamic plane than the rest of the playing.

You make a good point here about the bass drum. Yes, the bass drum is a difficult instrument to play quietly especially if you are playing fast rock and roll.

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The perfect situation would be to have someone with a good set of ears in the audience tell the band after the first song how the balance sounds.


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I wonder if anyone ever told Buddy Rich to "back off a little the drums are too loud". LOL

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The perfect situation would be to have someone with a good set of ears in the audience tell the band after the first song how the balance sounds.


I was going to do that after the first set but then decided it was not my job. If they would have asked, I would have had plenty of suggestions :)
 
Ok, first off the idea that the guitar would have to turn up to 100% to be heard over the drums is ridiculous. A 100 watt tube head turned up to 4 is so deafeningly loud you cant stand within 20 feet of it, not to mention what a 100 watt tube bass head will do. I am a hard hitter and my guitarist is turned up to about 3 most of the time. I literally have a 1500 watt PA system (I know that's really only the bridged amp into the sub, but we are still putting 800 into the mains) and as long as the monitors are set up right and the singer stays behind the mains we can play at ridiculous levels before feedback. We are a very loud band, and I am proud of that. I hit hard, I'm not playing jazz so why not.
 
Playing soft always would be a useless waste of time. The definition of dynamic insists on loud,soft and everything in between. Buddy Rich always hit em hard and if its good enough for Buddy its good enough for me. Not one person here can honestly say that they play their best, as fast and clean as they possibly can, while at the same time trying to play soft enough to not upset the dinner crowd. It's a dumbing down of the art form and I personally hate when I see it. Get quieter drums if needed but hit the things. If I went to see a big act and my favorite drummer was just whiffing at the drums trying to play soft as he can i'd want my money back. You would too.
 
We are a very loud band, and I am proud of that. I hit hard, I'm not playing jazz so why not.

Hey, play as loud as you want. The mix is my issue.

If they would have turned the amps and PA up to match the drums, it would have been uncomfortably loud (in my opinion) but at least it would have been mixed right.

This was a 1000 square foot dive bar with the bulk of the audience 20 feet from the stage. I was hanging back at 40'


And.....I'm not sure why someone would be proud of playing loud lol. It's not hard to do. You just turn up the volume and hit hard, right? :)

Speaking from my experience, in the olden days we played loud and distorted to cover our lack of skills. Now, loud or quiet, I like to hear all the pieces clearly, especially the vocals.
 
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