The legendary sweet spot

Larry

"Uncle Larry"
I hear people mention about tuning to a drum's "sweet spot".

I wanted to discuss exactly what this means.

As a pure guess, I would think that for example any 12 x 8 tom would have a "sweet spot" in a similar place, with things like wood type, construction, and all the other factors being responsible for exactly where this mythical "sweet spot" is. But my guess is they would all be in pretty close proximity...tuning-wise...to each other. Total guess and am looking for cheers, jeers, opinions, or what have you.

Also, does a sweet spot actually exist? If so, it implies a very narrow range where the drum sings best. Again, another guess. Clarification sought.

In my experience, a drum can sound really great over the span of around 2 octaves at least. So what determines where the sweet spot is?

Also, take a given drum, with a given set of heads and tensions, and say you find it's sweet spot. Assign it a note value, call it a C. Would a different set of heads, with different thicknesses and/or ply makeups...tuned to a that same C....would that drum still be in the sweet spot?

Can anybody offer any facts or anecdotal stories of if/how they found a drum's sweet spot?

Or is it just a myth?
 
Larry I am going to guess right along with you and say that adrum would have a "sweet spot" range. Since we all have different hearing we may all find a sweet spot that is different than the next guy. I'm sure the science nerds dealing in this type of thing could use an ossiliscope (sp) and say that is the optimum sound for this drum. Then we have different heads whcih in my mind would change all of that. And then does DW's note, stamped on the inside of the drums, make that the sweet spot? who knows
 
I spent a fair amount of time learning to tune/tension the instrument this last year. I made Monday my "mess around with tuning day", so my ears are pretty accustomed to it now.

TLDR version: It's pretty much a myth.

Cerebral version.

Each shell has it's own fundamental pitch without heads on it. Sometimes, people try to match the shell's fundamental with their drum heads thinking something magical will happen. The result is a long and loud fundamental. This would be the mythical sweet-spot. It does not sound good to my ear, and is as if something has gone horribly wrong with the drum. Like someone blowing across the aperture of a whiskey jug, it's more of a bellow than a percussive sound.

To me, every drum has a low, medium, and high tuning. For low, it's JAW. For high, it's pretty much anything over 80 on the dial so that a $200 piece of wood sounds like a $30 Roto-tom.. Medium is pretty much everything in between. I personally just tension medium, make a quick micro adjustment for my increments and uniformity, and am done with it.
 
Regarding the fundamental pitch without heads on it, and also regarding the note stamp on DW's...

I thought we pretty much came to the agreement that the note stamped on the DW shell before any hardware is attached....is useless. As soon as you add mass to that shell, it changes the frequency at which it will vibrate. (I think that's fact, open to challenges. I'm pretty sure Andy taught us all that)

So the note stamp is useless, opposing views welcome.

Kamak says that every shell has a fundamental with the heads off. Which means the rims off too. Putting the heads and rims and rods back on the shell adds mass, so I'm pretty sure that it would vibrate at a different frequency with heads and rims. Plus with the heads on, that must restrict the natural vibrations of the open part of the shell, further altering the fundamental....I'm guessing. Plus the more you tighten the heads, I would guess that would restrict vibrations to varying degrees, further altering the fundamental.

So it seems like it's a constantly moving target, this fundamental shell note, with no real way to define it definitively. AGGGHHH!

Which does nothing to further this discussion (assuming I'm correct) on what the heck is a sweet spot and can you see it on an oscilloscope.

Is it possible the whole sweet spot thing is a myth?

I mean there's no doubt that certain tunings are more pure sounding, and generally speaking more pleasing sounding, compared to drums that are really unevenly tensioned, then coupled with things like phase cancellation (comb filtering) going on, those drums sound a mess by comparison.

But there's a fairly wide range of good sounding tunings. Of all those good sounding tunings, is one, the best?

Maybe it's possible that every time you hit a good tuning, you are optimizing both heads along with the shell in harmony, and no good tuning is "better" than another good tuning. Just a theory.

If that's true, the sweet spot would be across the entire tuning range of the drum, right? It would be up to the tuner to make that happen. Just throwing that out there for discussion.
 
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When I tune up my reso heads on my toms, I have the batter head very loose and the batter head is sitting against the carpet on the ground or on a towel.
As I tune the reso head I get to a place where the drum seems the loudest. If I go past that point the drum will begin to choke.

I have always assumed that that point where the drum seems the loudest without choking is the "sweet spot". Although I have never used that term.

The batter head is then tuned for the musical note I want, but again the batter head has limits too. It can be tuned to low or too high.
As you suggested, I think the sweet spot is rather wide.


(I personally have a fairly wide sweet spot)


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This is the first I've heard sweet spot equated to loudness. Is that what it is, max volume? I really don't know. I always thought the sweet spot was where the shell note resonates in harmony with the head pitches. Maybe that make max volume as well? I have no basis for that, it's just a guess. Surely the sweet spot is not a dissonant tone, right?
 
Regarding the fundamental pitch without heads on it, and also regarding the note stamp on DW's...

I thought we pretty much came to the agreement that the note stamped on the DW shell before any hardware is attached....is useless. As soon as you add mass to that shell, it changes the frequency at which it will vibrate. (I think that's fact, open to challenges. I'm pretty sure Andy taught us all that)

So the note stamp is useless, opposing views welcome.

Kamak says that every shell has a fundamental with the heads off. Which means the rims off too. Putting the heads and rims and rods back on the shell adds mass, so I'm pretty sure that it would vibrate at a different frequency with heads and rims. Plus with the heads on, that must restrict the natural vibrations of the open part of the shell, further altering the fundamental....I'm guessing. Plus the more you tighten the heads, I would guess that would restrict vibrations to varying degrees, further altering the fudamental.

Horsefeathers! I mean, with all due respect. It works, and you should try to be a little less resistant. The use of Tunebot, which uses a chromatic tuner to determine the fundamental of the shell, is only going to increase. Why? You ask. Because despite its detractors, it works. You say the "fundamental" is garbage theory, but people still try it, and they find that it works. It works really well in fact, it makes other methods seem archaic. The notion that tuning drums is a mixture of dark arts and conjuring is gone. The smoke blown off the illusion. It's science plain and simple. Things it took me years to do with consistent results, kids with six months of playing time and a digital tuner are doing too. Wave of the future old boy. What's the saying? You can either get with it, or get run over by it.
 
I hear people mention about tuning to a drum's "sweet spot".

I wanted to discuss exactly what this means.

It means the morning after, the drum will greet you with breakfast freshly cooked and a big wide smile.
 
This is the first I've heard sweet spot equated to loudness. Is that what it is, max volume? I really don't know. I always thought the sweet spot was where the shell note resonates in harmony with the head pitches.

Well maybe loud is not the exact word I'm looking for. At the right spot, the drum just seems louder. It is like I get a pure tone with good sustain. So it seems louder. Of course you have to be hitting it with a consistent stroke.

Head too loose = no sustain, no pure open tone.
Head too tight = harmonic tones, the drum will choke

And again the correct tuning can have a fairly wide range. (two or three musical notes wide)
In fact if you use a piano to tune your drums you will find that each drum has a "sweet spot" that has a span of several notes. Then all of a sudden when you get the drum head too loose or too tight you will get sour notes from the drum, when you compare it to the piano.

You know, I should make a video about this. Then I can become a famous drum tuner on YouTube.... LOL

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Horsefeathers! I mean, with all due respect. It works, and you should try to be a little less resistant. The use of Tunebot, which uses a chromatic tuner to determine the fundamental of the shell, is only going to increase. Why? You ask.

No doubt. Tunebot does wonders for those that are unable to quickly pitch match lugs on their own, just as drum dial is great for those that are unable to tension on their own. For experienced tuners, I imagine they're great for documenting tunings and fine tuning for studio performances. I also imagine they're good for occasions (backstage) where you need to tune without being able to hear a drum. I still mess with both about once a week.

The argument here is whether there's something magical that occurs to a drum when you tune the heads exactly to a shell's natural fundamental. Ultimately, the answer is no. Nothing magical happens. At best, the drum is in tune. At worst, it sings a little too loud/long.

Drums have a tuning range, and not a singular "This frequency is gonna blow your F'ing mind!" G-spot.
 
Head too loose = no sustain, no pure open tone.
Head too tight = harmonic tones, the drum will choke
This. I've had plenty of drums that sound horrible "just above wrinkle". And you have to get up past that (more than just above), to get a pleasant tone. And that's where the sweet spot starts. Once there, some drums have a wider usable range than others. Once a drum starts to choke, that's the end of the sweet spot.​
 
This. I've had plenty of drums that sound horrible "just above wrinkle". And you have to get up past that (more than just above), to get a pleasant tone. And that's where the sweet spot starts. Once there, some drums have a wider usable range than others. Once a drum starts to choke, that's the end of the sweet spot.​

Now how come I couldn't say it as well as you did ?


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The Sweet Spot definitely exists. Every drum that I have ever owned has several of them. By that I mean that depending on the heads, the tuning, and the environment, along with many other factors, the Sweet Spot changes from day to day.
How many times have I found myself turning the rods on one of my toms just a slight bit tighter or looser to obtain the tone for that moment in time even though all was just fine the day before.
The Sweet Spot changes from day to day.
There is no true formula as if it were a secret sauce from a fast food chain.
 
Regarding the fundamental pitch without heads on it, and also regarding the note stamp on DW's...

I thought we pretty much came to the agreement that the note stamped on the DW shell before any hardware is attached....is useless. As soon as you add mass to that shell, it changes the frequency at which it will vibrate. (I think that's fact, open to challenges. I'm pretty sure Andy taught us all that)

I've posted it before, but I made an A-B-C test with the Acrolite shell which showcases this. I hung it from the butt plate and played the shell with a mallet, both from the inside and the outside. First with 0 lugs, then with 4 lugs and finally with all 8 lugs. The change in tone is a lot bigger than I would have thought.

https://soundcloud.com/poika/ludwig-acrolite-shell-test

So even if a shell has a certain fundamental tone with nothing attached, once you start adding hardware to it, therefore adding weight, you are basically tuning the fundamental because it will vibrate on a different frequency with every little piece of hardware you are attaching to it.

So basically, the bare fundamental of the shell with NOTHING on is of no value to you after you've put the lugs and heads and rims on

Unless you have a method of some kind, where you have calculated how much each added gram changes the tone, so you know what the fundamental will be when you reach a specific weight... All you'd have to do is weigh the lugs and heads and everything and just add it all up. Does that sound even remotely possible?
 
Horsefeathers! The use of Tunebot, which uses a chromatic tuner to determine the fundamental of the shell,
Double "horsefeathers", you misread Larry's post. The Tunebot doesn't reveal the fundamental of the shell unless you're tapping a naked shell. A Tunebot can give you the fundamental of the drum complete with all it's parts. Semantics to a degree, I know, but an important clarification. Larry was merely pointing out the disconnection between a naked shell fundamental & a complete drum fundamental. That difference exists, it's a fact.

On a more general point, a full reply to Larry's questions would take me far too long & be way too boring to air here, so I'll abstain on this occasion.
 
I've posted it before, but I made an A-B-C test with the Acrolite shell which showcases this. I hung it from the butt plate and played the shell with a mallet, both from the inside and the outside. First with 0 lugs, then with 4 lugs and finally with all 8 lugs. The change in tone is a lot bigger than I would have thought.

https://soundcloud.com/poika/ludwig-acrolite-shell-test

So even if a shell has a certain fundamental tone with nothing attached, once you start adding hardware to it, therefore adding weight, you are basically tuning the fundamental because it will vibrate on a different frequency with every little piece of hardware you are attaching to it.

So basically, the bare fundamental of the shell with NOTHING on is of no value to you after you've put the lugs and heads and rims on

Unless you have a method of some kind, where you have calculated how much each added gram changes the tone, so you know what the fundamental will be when you reach a specific weight... All you'd have to do is weigh the lugs and heads and everything and just add it all up. Does that sound even remotely possible?

Incredible! 202020202020222020
 
So we have some pro and some cons. We can't all be right. Poika, your test was one of the convincers that the more mass you hang on a shell, the more it changes the vibrational properties of the shell. That was a great test.
 
I'll take a crack at it —

Drums are like fine wine or any other acquired taste with complex character that contain some undesirable elements which blend with each other to produce an impression of lasting interest.

Some of those undesirable elements increase at different rates to the style of tuning tension.
The "sweet spot" is determined by choosing where you want the derivative, or typical tone to balance with the undesirable characters like higher overtones to produce a sound which creates the amount of complexity that is preferred for the listening conditions.

With modern drums that have iso mounts and lower mass lugs, the sweet spot might have a larger range of tuning where the overtones don't change as much, but does not necessarily sound better than a drum with high mass lugs and a smaller range of generic sweet spot.

So if you blend the tone, overtones, punch, bend, and transient dynamics the way you want it, you get your personal sweet spot.
 
So if you blend the tone, overtones, punch, bend, and transient dynamics the way you want it, you get your personal sweet spot.

This brings up an interesting point.

Maybe the "sweet spot" is more determined by personal preference than by science.

If you took 20 drummers and they tuned the same drum for the sweet spot, how many different sweet spots would you get?
And how many would tell you they could not find the sweet spot on that drum?


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Maybe the "sweet spot" is more determined by personal preference than by science.
I think you're right, here. And you'd probably get three "ranges" of tune. Low, medium, and high ..... within the given parameter of the drums sweet spot.​
The widest range drum I ever had, was/were some Zickos 14x10 rack toms. I wound up having four of them, at one time. Two, were tuned to a pitch up high, like in the 12" and 13" rack tom range ..... and two were pitched low, in the 14" and 16" floor tom range. And I've never had a wood shelled drum that has been that "wide" in it's tuning range.​
 
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