Completely out of touch old fart irrelevant opinion - but,

GeoB said:
DJ's ticked me off back in the 70's. Hundreds of musicians were put out of work in the DC area when disco went DJ. Suddenly. Almost without warning.
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...and many percussionists were put out of business when the silent films turned into talkies. Damn talkies! If the popcorn is good and not too salty, and they have that little machine that lets you put your own butter on there then I might stay and watch the movie. Or if they're showing something with Tom Hardy, I love that guy.

For the record, I did have 3 different musical acts at my wedding. I'll pay to see Deadmau5 and enjoy a good DJ but when its on mine and my family's dollar we're gonna go with live musicians. Plus it legally can't be a Mexican wedding without Mariachis.
 
Red Menace said:
...and many percussionists were put out of business when the silent films turned into talkies.
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Just as bass drummers were put out of work when the pedal was invented, allowing the snare drummer to play both drums.

Of course, Louis Bellson soon came along and put two bass drummers out of work! :)

Bermuda
 
I have to agree, it's the same thing, as rock an roll. This years axe of choice comes in a suitcase and has more firepower than a platoon. Honestly, I bet the laptop sounds better, because the DJ has complete control of the sound, and won't put the guitar and vocals too prominently in the mix, not to mention the laptop DJ probably put more thought and orchestration into the composition than your common chord strummer. Furthermore, you can dance to it.
 
Red Menace said:
...For the record, I did have 3 different musical acts at my wedding. I'll pay to see Deadmau5 and enjoy a good DJ but when its on mine and my family's dollar we're gonna go with live musicians. Plus it legally can't be a Mexican wedding without Mariachis.
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and it can't be A Mexican Divorce without a Burt Bacharach and Bob Hilliard collaboration.
 
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As much as I want to agree, I see merit in those types of events, mostly for people that want to dance, socialize, dress up, get noticed and take recreational drugs. I am over it now but I had some fantastic times at raves and the steady doof doof pulse and the clarity you get with electronic music (rock music often sounds crap at large venues IMO) is just fine for those purposes. Would I play that music in my car, or my loungeroom, or at my computer? Hell no.
 
If you put this kind of thing down as requiring no talent or skill, would YOU have the first idea how to show up with a laptop and get that warehouse full of kids jumping up and down?

A good DJ/EDM performer "works" the crowd, knows how to string pieces together to build energy, let it drop back down, then back up, then WAY up, etc. Not wear out the crowd too soon....

Notice I said "good." I'm sure there are the equivalent of musical mix tapes with a guy standing there, but then I've sat through a few lifeless live cover band sets, too. I'd almost pay to never experience a street fair band chugging their way through "Mustang Sally" ever again.

Kids have been paying to dance to people playing recorded music for 50+ years. Those great TV dance party shows of the '60's? Milt Grant, Dick Clark, Real Don Steele, Don Cornelius? The closest they ever got to "live" performance was the occasional band lip-sync.
 
I was just watching some footage of Meshuggah playing live and it reminded me of this thread. I see five dudes on working their butts off on stage playing songs that many people won't consider easy. There's still thumping bass, mind-melting lighting, and that crowd sure as hell looks like they're having fun. The fact that Meshuggah's brand of music isn't taken seriously by society, but DJ's have been embraced with seemingly open arms is what gets me worked up on this subject. But come on guys, I understand that electronic musicians do technically write songs, but how many of them are truly "musicians?"
 
Playing an acoustic kit requires a mix of the physical and mental.

Playing sequencer requires a lot less physical skill but needs a lot of mental skills not used in acoustic kit playing.

I enjoy programming and mixing tracks - done a fair bit of it and it's challenging, requiring music production skills ... and it's often confusing! However, I love the physical act of drumming, which is also challenging and frequently confusing :)
 
keep it simple said:
Irrelevant old fart out :)
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Youth is wasted on the young, we all know that! : )

Maybe old farts, Andy, but not irrelevant. Hey, people still wear shoelaces even though velcro is here!

My point here is actually contextual to my speed thread in that we cannot help but compare and evaluate art, even though we intellectually understand that it doesnt quite work like that.Music history is street corners, churches, dance halls, clubs, bars, Arenas, Mtv, EDM.. from audio, to video, to experiential. Other senses have been brought into play.
As someone in this thread has already mentioned, EDM a collective social experience, that doesnt quite fit into our neat little boxes of conventional understanding.

One cant fight technology and evolution, but we can and we will pass personal judgement & rant against the shifting rules of the game, fair enough, because it is unfamiliar and we dont like it. But we must see it for what it is:

Basically, it is Sex, Drugs n' Rock & Roll, version 0.2. Re-packaged.


...
 
Souljacker said:
Another out of touch of opinion. People are hardly going to pay good money for an event with music that doesn't appeal to them. Maybe some will but many won't.

These festivals attract fans of electronic dance music and there isn't anything wrong with that.

Maybe you don't appreciate it but surely you can at least appreciate that not everyone is just there to do drugs and get laid.

A genuinely good DJ with great song selection is a real treat for fans of this type of music.
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Who said I didn't appreciate it? I'd appreciate you not putting words in my mouth.

I dated an agent whose clients were some pretty big pro DJ's in Brooklyn. One guys in particular was making $3500.00 a night. Insane.

Those kids I met were dance party kids. The parties were awesome. Lots of fun.

But if you think that the fans of electronic music depicted in that photo are serious listeners in the same way that jazz listeners are then you are out of touch yourself.

Imagine going to see a DJ in a sit down club with no light show. Yeah right.
 
aydee said:
Basically, it is Sex, Drugs n' Rock & Roll, version 0.2. Re-packaged.


...
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Exactly! Not wishing to belittle any group in particular, but I bet most of the guys in the audience aren't there for the music ;) ;) ;) I went to "disco's" in my teens, & I sure as hell didn't go to worship Boney M!

I do however dislike the extension of "everything easy & now please" mentality that commonly perpetrates younger western society values, & I suppose the "laptop live" stab is just a flagship manifestation of that in some ways. Of course, in reality, it's someone using a tool, an "instrument" if you will, as a vehicle to express their creative works. No different to a drum kit in that regard. Old farts concentrate on what they believe (measured blindly against their own experiences) is a lack of hard won skill/effort to get to a certain performance point. Well, the same can be said of a jazz musician looking down on the rock musician. Look no further than Buddy for a prime example of that. Buddy was both wrong & right in that regard, & just a highly vocal ambassador for an opinion held by most of his peers. You can guess at my thoughts on that, so who the hell am I to place that same blinkered high brow negative on the next generation of creative mass performers?

And the circle continues :)
 
Anon La Ply said:
I enjoy programming and mixing tracks - done a fair bit of it and it's challenging, requiring music production skills ... and it's often confusing! However, I love the physical act of drumming, which is also challenging and frequently confusing :)
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Now you're confusing an old fart like me :)

aydee said:
Basically, it is Sex, Drugs n' Rock & Roll, version 0.2. Re-packaged.
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Yes Abe... I believe it is... and goes hand in hand with what you've said on your Speed Obsession thread...

"How about EDM or the DJs? Pulling in some of the biggest audiences. Look ma, no hands. Just manipulating technology."

keep it simple said:
Of course, in reality, it's someone using a tool, an "instrument" if you will, as a vehicle to express their creative works. No different to a drum kit in that regard. Old farts concentrate on what they believe (measured blindly against their own experiences) is a lack of hard won skill/effort to get to a certain performance point.
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It's hard to come to term and accept a laptop as an "instrument", years ago when the electronic drums came about and later drum programming started to appear on records, I hated them and I used to boycott anything with an E-kit or drum programming as I felt cheated in some ways, I wanted a "real" drum kit and a real drummer behind an acoustic kit.

I still feel that way a little about electronics being an old fart like you, I still prefer real instruments played by musicians rather than a whizz kid behind a PC, but I guess entertainment as moved on... and I should be the one who needs adapting to it... or perhaps not, lol.

Yes there's a skill in EDM or DJ's performance, which goes widely over my head, but I guess it should the result that count, the trouble is that the result doesn't satisfy me 9 times out of 10 :(

A Swiss old git mini rant :)
 
I'd much rather see a bad band than a good DJ.

Just sayin'...

Of course a good band would be better, but if I have to choose....
 
Not to mention that many times DJ's with laptops go on to hire real live musicians to perform their music,for example Beck or NIN. It's just that awkward phase where they are composing music, but can't find anyone that doesn't want to play 70's covers.
 
There was a time in my life when I took the "get off my lawn" attitude about music, being mad that other people weren't "as hip as me" and complaining that everyone liked junk or whatever. But I can't live like that anymore. I would rather spend my time improving myself and promoting what I do than cutting down others in an effort to elevate myself. I don't like everything. I have strong opinions—some would say too strong—but I don't see the point in getting all pissed off about someone else's success. It's so hard to make it in the performance arts. I just tip my cap to anyone who pulls it off.
 
SmoothOperator said:
Not to mention that many times DJ's with laptops go on to hire real live musicians to perform their music,for example Beck or NIN. It's just that awkward phase where they are composing music, but can't find anyone that doesn't want to play 70's covers.
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Hmm, are 70s covers really all we want to play?

Live local-level rock bands are not allowed to be original, unconventional or to play non-dance music unless they are brilliant or riding the wave of the zeitgeist. DJs have more creative license ... as long as they keep the doof coming :)

So most old school players are expected to play covers (anything from 70s to current, depending on target audience) to get people dancing and drinking freely. I have done that enough in the past to be bored by the formulaic aspects of the dynamic so I do home recording to get my jollies. If I presented that music at a bar it would go down like a lead balloon. Possibly lynched ...

That's why so many people want to play old covers. They want to play their music in public, be paid properly, to be received enthusiastically and some want to be received exceptionally enthusiastically after the show ...
 
Your viewpoint depends on what you value in a musician and his or her music.

If you value the ability to play a traditional instrument live, then Deadmau5 will seem dumb.

If you value the ability to get a crowd on its feet dancing, then Yitzhak Perlman will seem dumb.

If you value the ability to create music with complicated chord progressions and thoughtful lyrics, pop music will seem dumb.

If you value assuring other people your taste is better than theirs, then you will seem dumb.
 
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