I miss Pollyanna

A little forum advise I have learned. If your leaving, just leave. Then when you cool off you just slide back in. But you may find out nobody cares. Plainly not the case here.
If you are having a disagreement, PM the person and work it out.
Innuendo is the same as just saying it.
Forums ARE real life. Such as it is.
A wink is as good as a nod to a blind man. OK thats not relavent.

I feel a bit bad about this since so many people miss her and because I think I was a big part of why the thread in question stayed alive so long that the things got to a point where Polly left. Certanly wasn't my intention and I don't think it was my fault. At least I didn't mean anything. And while we didn't share the same opinion about the topic I still think there wouldn't be anything to discuss if we all shared the same opinion, and this IS a discussion board. Somewhere in the middle of arguments though the discussion turned into personal insults and misunderstandment. Sad chain of events, at least for Polly. I hope she comes back, not for me, but because I don't like it when discussions end like this. It means someone has failed.

JPW said:

I feel a bit bad about his since so many people miss her and because I think I was a big part of why the thread in question stayed alive so long that the things got to a point where Polly left. Certanly wasn't my intention and I don't think it was my fault. At least I didn't mean anything. And while we didn't share the same opinion about the topic I still think there wouldn't be anything to discuss if we all shared the same opinion, and this IS a discussion board. Somewhere in the middle of arguments though the discussion turned into personal insults and misunderstandment. Sad chain of events, at least for Polly. I hope she comes back, not for me, but because I don't like it when discussions end like this. It means someone has failed.

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Of course it wasn't your fault, the whole thing got out of hand, in fact it needn't have either but nothing can be done about it unfortunately.

Also, Polly didn't put me up to this. She did slip away quietly. This thread was my idea alone, and she shouldn't be portrayed as someone who planned an attention getting thread designed by her, because that just isn't the case. I was upset and wanted to let it be known, because without her the place is not nearly as interesting for me.

I also feel the same way about KIS and really should have included his name equally with Polly's. I can't speak from direct knowledge if his feelings were hurt, I think he was more disgusted with the way things went, but I shouldn't really speak for him, because I have no firsthand knowledge of his reasons. KIS if you're lurking, you rock too man and I miss you too, and hope you return. I'm sorry for not including you right from the get go.

Good grief, all these posts! Thanks heaps Larry and co for saying such nice things. Didn't expect any of this but I do appreciate it.

This was actually the third time I'd been given rubbish in 6 months - the last straw. I never started any of the nastiness. I could have handled things better but there are more enjoyable ways of spending your leisure time than feeling stressed because some people want to misrepresent and insult you. That's just logic, not a case of Polly going crackers

To revisit the forum rules:


It's not about what I want - them's the rules.

For the record, I never dissed skill or technique. I've been a fan of Bill Bruford's since 1975 and he has great chops and I also love all of Steely Dan's drummers (plus many other top players). Yet when I hear obvious drum acrobatics I go "wow" for a few minutes and then get bored. That's not disrespect, just my musical taste.

Mind you, the big gospel chops, jazzrock and metal monsters won't care what any of us think since they are enjoying their careers and they know they won't appeal to everyone.

And Meg White won't care what anyone here thinks either because she's a more solid, tasteful and better-sounding drummer than most of her detractors. Ditto Ringo and Charlie. They are gig-hardened pros who have played huge venues to thousands of fans, something that few of us here have experienced, certainly not me. Respect starts there.

I think we need to sort out this misunderstanding before we can progress without again being stuck in the same old pointless argument. Maybe then we can chat about drumming philosophies without things going pear-shaped? I like talking about the philosophies behind what people choose to play or listen to because, to me, a major part of drumming is mental and emotional, not just physical.

Some may feel that members who embrace the low-technique drummers with clever ideas are engaging in sour grapes and don't appreciate skill. Maybe that does happen at times but I can't think of a single example on this forum. What's wrong with enjoying both hot and understated drummers, but preferring the latter?

Whatever, I like the money beat. It rocks back and forth like a pendulum. That doesn't mean it's the be-all-and-end-all. The disagreements on the money beat thread were friendly in the first few pages and it was fun because differerent opinions are interesting. But later on the hostile comments, misrepresentations and dissing of others' playing were not only bad form in my books but a breach of forum etiquette.

If I see nasty posts again - to me or anyone else - I'm not engaging, I'll just report them. I don't want to be a squealer running to Daddy Dogbreath for help but that makes more sense than fighting.

Sorry, another long post

PS. I too would like to see KIS here again.

Average said:

I am the worst player on the boards. I was being kind to name myself Average. Good enough or would you like more? How about this - I can't even play drums. I walk into a room and the drums run away. More? Furthermore, everyone on here is smarter and better looking than me. Everyone has better teeth than me (including the British posters).



Never happened. I think you misread the exchange completely. I've never asked her (or any other posters) to leave and I was not referring to her specifically in any of my posts. If you read the thread, look at post #212. I don't know how I can say it more specifically than that.

It has been said, in this thread that someone should apologize. It won't be me. First, I wasn't talking about her. If I apologized to her, I would have to lie in the apology. Second, I didn't say anything about any specific posters, just specific behaviors that I have seen on drummerworld. Again, read the thread and you will see all of this posted. What I said about the specific behaviors was true and needed to be said. I won't take it back.

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You see that's your problem, you just think you're so clever and you would not shut up about the fact that you supposedly weren't talking about her when you even mentioned her name in the post and who the hell else could it be?

DrewTheShoe said:

While she was a good contribution to the forum, I personally think this entire thing is getting blown out of proportion. The debate escalated to argument, and one party decided to just leave. Sure, she'll be missed by some but honestly, there are plenty of other posters that are just as insightful, probably more so, the only difference is that they have testes.

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that is exactly it, it's because she is a girl.....no offence or anything polly.
poeple on this site ar kind of chauvinistic, saying stuff like...." aww she's a tough cookie" and stuff like that. ( even though that wasn't actually said!)

I guess it's all in the interpretation of the forum rules. If someone has to be "hall" monitor and go report any posts that he or she disagrees with, so be it. I try to be fair with my posts in regards to not hurting any one's feelings, but there is no reason to tread lightly and treat one gender with more respect than the other. We are all people.

Dennis

eddiehimself said:

You see that's your problem, you just think you're so clever and you would not shut up about the fact that you supposedly weren't talking about her when you even mentioned her name in the post and who the hell else could it be?

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Apparently I wasn't clear enough. Let me repost and add:

I am the worst player on the boards. I was being kind to name myself Average. Good enough or would you like more? How about this - I can't even play drums. I walk into a room and the drums run away. More? Furthermore, everyone on here is smarter and better looking than me. Everyone has better teeth than me (including the British posters).

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Apparently that wasn't enough. I'll try to appeas you a little more: I am the least clever person on the board. I graduated highschool with a terrible grade average. My hair is TERRIBLE. It isn't even remotely rock star hair. My clothes are the worst on the board. Leather pants would look ridiculous on me. My butt is too big. My eyes are 2 different shades. One arm is a little longer than the other. I have a gimp right pinky finger. I stink but my sense of smell is worse than my taste in music so I can't tell. I just walk around grossing everyone out.

Hope that makes it easier for you friend.

Apparently my comments in the thread were general enough that several people thought that they were the subject of my posts. This is a stupid discussion. If I said I wasn't talking about her I wasn't. That is the end of the story. And, BTW, I only mentioned her by name to tell her specifically that I wasn't talking about her. Enough already. Read the freaking thread instead of just skimming it.

Both of you need to take a chill pill, calm down! We don't want to see anyone gone or banned so just stop now! Welcome back Polly i hope your presence will grace us often and not fade =)

Pollyanna said:

Good grief, all these posts! Thanks heaps Larry and co for saying such nice things. Didn't expect any of this but I do appreciate it.

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I always knew you were a trouble maker and rabble-rouser.

I guess it comes down to the fact that no matter what you are discussing, both sides are bound to have good points and valid arguments. But these discussions really go nowhere without some concrete examples of how things are used, when they work, when they don't, why you like it, why you don't. To talk about basic beats without any context really makes no sense at all. To talk about anything without any context makes no sense at all. One of the tunes I use in my teaching is Distracted from Al Jarreau with Gadd, see what he does with the money beat there. That's interesting. I am sure there is also an interesting Meg White example.

glad you're back.

Whew! The drama. I read this thread from start to finish without jumping to the end. Nice to see Polly chimed in.

I like this forum a lot..

..so I'm gonna use this opportunity to apologize to anyone I may have ever offended. I enjoy almost everyone's contributions and I don't like the "ignore" feature.

I didn't even know this was going on because of visiting family and being extra busy with work. My New Year's resolution will be to always post as if I'm sitting across the table from everyone else.

Happy Holidays everyone.

Larry's got a heart of gold

Deltadrummer said:

I always knew you were a trouble maker and rabble-rouser.

I guess it comes down to the fact that no matter what you are discussing, both sides are bound to have good points and valid arguments. But these discussions really go nowhere without some concrete examples of how things are used, when they work, when they don't, why you like it, why you don't. To talk about basic beats without any context really makes no sense at all. To talk about anything without any context makes no sense at all.

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True Ken. When people post opinions they are always right - to them. Some may be more right than others and I usually try to look at what people mean more than being literal about their posts. But I saw red when I read the comment about people who "play like crap" being jealous and deluded. Especially since it came directly after my post about not being as excited about chop monsters as in my youth. Hey, all that testosterone-soaked flash on display is pretty damn cool when you're young! Guess I'm a bit over it now. Probably should apologise for being old and Too Pooped To Pop

Whatever, no one has the right to say someone plays like crap IMO; musicians are just in different stages of development. The only person allowed to say someone's crap is the person him/herself, and even then it's rarely helpful.

At one point in the $ beat thread I listed specific examples of moneybeats that impressed me in the musical context or their execution. In hindsight it would have been more useful to raise one good example and analyse why it worked so well. Like this ...

Deltadrummer said:

One of the tunes I use in my teaching is Distracted from Al Jarreau with Gadd, see what he does with the money beat there. That's interesting. I am sure there is also an interesting Meg White example.

glad you're back.

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Re: Distracted, , this version (starting at 5:30) is Mark Simmons rather than Steve G but it's still the $ beat. A slow tempo money beat leaves a ton of space between major accents, creating a floating feeling between them. The minor hihat accent on 2 gives it swing and propulsion. You have to get the timing so spot on with those spacious beats to get them grooving.

Thanks again to everyone who was supportive - a bit embarrassed and amazed. Cool how these kinships develop over thousands of miles

[QUOTE=Pollyanna;646937

{Whatever, no one has the right to say someone plays like crap IMO; musicians are just in different stages of development. The only person allowed to say someone's crap is the person him/herself, and even then it's rarely helpful.}

Yeah, that was over the top sarcastic and uncalled for. I had posted a response to that comment in this thread, but deleted it after a little thought. Glad you're back.

Fishnmusicn

Hmmm my evil plan worked mu ha ha ha!.....Now if KIS would return, that would be the icing..Polly, what can I say, except I'M SO GLAD YOU'RE BACK!

Acceptance of others is a wonderful thing.
Being able to disagree w/ someone without hurting that person's feelings is a great life skill.
Tact: The ability to tell someone to go to hell, and actually make them look forward to the trip.

Also, a little life lesson I've learned, yes, we're all equal, but (for the men) if you treat the women in your life just a little extra special, all the time, not only will you make them smile, you'll feel good about yourself, and it is self perpetuating. It will flow back to you.

It raises the standard, and gives younger people a good example to strive towards. It's just the right thing to do. Putting a little extra effort in respecting others, is one of the most satisfying things in life that I've found.

In fact I'll go as far to say that there is more or less a direct relationship between how we talk to one another and how we play with one another. If your conversations are self centered and short sighted, I'll bet that it is reflected in your playing. A drummers role is mainly a supportive one, not the featured dish. How can we be supportive if we don't look past ourselves?

If you put others first, you will die a rich person.

Thanks for the kind words TTNW. This forum is close to my heart and I want it to be the standard that all other forums are held to.

Glad Poly is back.

.....so... can we get back to our "legendary" Tom angle discussion?

No, read post #1. Last 2 sentences.
Quote:
Originally Posted by keep it simple
I know this will divide the forum, that's why I've posted this. Let's get it on!

It did exactly that. Like locking 2 cats in a closet, that you know hate each other, and then be supprised when the "outcome" isn't pretty.


100% correct HC. I opologised for using sensationalist language for the title in the original thread. It was a naive attempt to generate traffic in a style used to great effect by others. I expected division of opinion & lively debate. I didn't expect things to get or be taken personally. Stupid of me really. Why would I expect anything else when such an outcome is possible face to face, let alone in some remote forum where the contributors have the benefit of anonymity.

Naivety is the key word here. I've certainly come to this forum with a hugely over optomistic expectation of kinship & community between fellow drummers. I suppose I should be thanking those who posted in the $ beat thread for giving me a reality check, but somehow, it doesn't seem right just yet. My disillusionment with the forum extends beyond the $ beat thread, but again, that's more a product of my own naivety than anything else.

I'm glad Polly's back on the pages. She contributes valuable flavour in an otherwise barren landscape, whether you value her opinion or you default to your "ignor" button. Average made a statement that I felt was unnecessarily pointed. I made my feelings on the matter clear, issue dealt with. I didn't value the automatic assumption that, because of my opinions, I'm part of some group of posters who've obviously been embroiled in some form of historical DW forum BS. Again, dealt with, but it leaves a bad taste. I hate having my motives questioned. I'm proud of my conduct on this forum. This is the first and only forum I've ever been involved with. It's clear I'm not forum savvy.

Then I bring all of this into context. Apart from my own serious health challenges of the last few years, both my parents have recently had huge strokes in quick succession. I've just spent 4 days & nights at my mothers bedside, restraining her from self harm and listening to her scream continuously. Somehow, the finer points of some cyber discussion occupy a lesser place in my thoughts.

At the opposite end of the pleasure spectrum, I'm playing a gig tomorrow night in front of 600 people who've paid good money to see me & my band play. As part of a band that's already attracting significant attention after only 1 gig, I conclude I must be doing something right. I'll go with accepting judgement from those who pay their hard earned cash to be entertained by "musicians", rather than being sanctimoniously pigeon holed by those who value opinions on a pseudo hierarchical basis and are "apparently" legends in their own bathtime! (Disclaimer; any similarity to situations or persons, living or otherwise, is purely coincidental).

I'll monitor the delivery of gear to Leo (currently postponed for a few weeks due to bereavement issues around the guy who's kindly shipping the stuff to Cuba) but I guess I still need some repair time.

Thanks to some for the kind words and nice move Larry, posting to encourage Polly back.

Fondest regards for the new year, KIS.

keep it simple said:

Then I bring all of this into context. Apart from my own serious health challenges of the last few years, both my parents have recently had huge strokes in quick succession. I've just spent 4 days & nights at my mothers bedside, restraining her from self harm and listening to her scream continuously. Somehow, the finer points of some cyber discussion occupy a lesser place in my thoughts.

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I debated whether it was even worth replying, but the above quote pretty much compelled me to say something. I'm sorry you are having trouble with your health and the health of your parents. I hope things get better for you soon.

Originally Posted by keep it simple
I know this will divide the forum, that's why I've posted this. Let's get it on!

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If you posted that, knowing full well what would happen, how are you even remotely surprised by the outcome? What does it mean to 'divide the forum'?

Average made a statement that I felt was unnecessarily pointed. I made my feelings on the matter clear, issue dealt with. I didn't value the automatic assumption that, because of my opinions, I'm part of some group of posters who've obviously been embroiled in some form of historical DW forum BS.

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You brought me into it. Here are a couple points about the issue.

My comments were general enough that several people, you, Polly and others who PM'd me, all thought they were targeted. That doesn't sound personal to me, it sounds pretty general. Like I said, I was not talking about specific posters, just specific behaviors.

Reality check - I haven't heard you or Polly's playing, either live or on the forum. I've never claimed to have heard your playing and I have never evaluated your playing. I don't have an opinion of your playing one way or another and I really don't care enough about either of your playing to take the time looking for it. I'm too busy trying to improve my own awful playing to worry about what an anonymous poster on the internet is capable of laying down.

This gets to a very important point - if my comments didn't apply to you, why did you react as though they did? In order to be the target of my comments, you had to self-apply the label. Even when I straight out told you that I wasn't talking about you, you kept labeling yourself as the target. Polly did the same thing. The only thing about you two that was different from the people who PM'd me was you did it publicly. When you and Polly were flipping out about being the subject of my posts, it certainly didn't help things that people kept posting [paraphrasing] 'oh snap, Average insulted Polly and KIS'[/paraphrasing]. You and Polly reacted to something that wasn't about you, pigeonholed yourselves and then circled the wagons. You were fighting a fight simply to fight. And then of course, things snowballed because of another phenomenon on DW.

Average said:

I debated whether it was even worth replying, but the above quote pretty much compelled me to say something. I'm sorry you are having trouble with your health and the health of your parents. I hope things get better for you soon.



If you posted that, knowing full well what would happen, how are you even remotely surprised by the outcome? What does it mean to 'divide the forum'?



You brought me into it. Here are a couple points about the issue.

My comments were general enough that several people, you, Polly and others who PM'd me, all thought they were targeted. That doesn't sound personal to me, it sounds pretty general. Like I said, I was not talking about specific posters, just specific behaviors.

Reality check - I haven't heard you or Polly's playing, either live or on the forum. I've never claimed to have heard your playing and I have never evaluated your playing. I don't have an opinion of your playing one way or another and I really don't care enough about either of your playing to take the time looking for it. I'm too busy trying to improve my own awful playing to worry about what an anonymous poster on the internet is capable of laying down.

This gets to a very important point - if my comments didn't apply to you, why did you react as though they did? In order to be the target of my comments, you had to self-apply the label. Even when I straight out told you that I wasn't talking about you, you kept labeling yourself as the target. Polly did the same thing. The only thing about you two that was different from the people who PM'd me was you did it publicly. When you and Polly were flipping out about being the subject of my posts, it certainly didn't help things that people kept posting [paraphrasing] 'oh snap, Average insulted Polly and KIS'[/paraphrasing]. You and Polly reacted to something that wasn't about you, pigeonholed yourselves and then circled the wagons. You were fighting a fight simply to fight. And then of course, things snowballed because of another phenomenon on DW.

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I can see this has all been just a big misunderstanding. However the original comment did sound antagonistic and provocational and therefore Polly has believed that you were targeting her specifically as it was directly after her post. Everyone should just forget and move on. Life is too short and all of this time could be used on drumming =)

Alright these are my last thoughts. It's long but I think needs to be said, because I have very strong feelings on this matter.

I would like to respond to this and no other statement. I think the forums too often go off into these wild directions where they were never intended, and for just a brief moment I would like to keep things narrow. So the statement I'm responding to is...

Some may feel that members who embrace the low-technique drummers with clever ideas are engaging in sour grapes and don't appreciate skill.Maybe that does happen at times but I can't think of a single example on this forum.

But first some background.

My family had to change their phone number three times because of anti WFD garbage that came directly from drum forums. Several of you who have seen me at NAMMs also know the story about the guy cops in Anaheim had to visit because he claimed in a pm that he wanted to meet me in front of the convention center to see exactly how fast my hands were. Then there was the really bad one in 2005 that I don't even want to go into, but Jeff Almeyda and several others here know the whole story.

Now some might want to consider physical threats, psychotic Internet stalkers, and police actions a whole lot of historical forum BS. Well to me it all seemed pretty real at the time.

For anyone who wants to make the wreckless and irresponsible statement that anti technique statements have never been made on this forum, I personally think it's time you drop your tact and become a little more aware, because it's no laughing matter. The fact of the matter is quite simply this. Not only have these statements been made, but in numerous instances they lead to a lot more than supposed misunderstandings on a drum forum.

For some of you who may be new to these battles, WFD was a speed drumming world championship that was a lightning rod of technique hater controversy on drum forums for years and years. Several forums laden with trolls thought it would be a good joke to burn participants to the ground. It started with the now defunct Evans forum, then moved to numerous larger more expansive ones. In fact numerous youtube trolls of the future cut their teeth on those forums using WFD as a kind of model, but to DW's credit not as many here. That was because this forum has always been tightly moderated and observant of troll behavior. But even tight moderation can't spot all of this, so yeah the trolls still fell through the cracks from time to time, and tried to get their 2c in here as much as possible because this forum had become a refuge of sorts for guys like me who wanted to to be in technique comps because I just decided to.

Still at any given time, several of the better known drum forum trolls were and are here in various forms, and some of the very same reasonable folks here who say there's never been a problem befriend them all the time without knowing it. Then they go to another forum and make fun of you. That's the reality.

According to some who would see it another way, I had the bad judgement to actually win one of those WFD world championships and in one instance here posted a video of a world record run in 2008. The thread was then taken over by numerous famous trolls from other forums who had read of my accomplishment on sickdrummer.com, and thought I didn't deserve the attention. They were in turn followed by employees tied to a rival well known drum comp. I knew who they were because I had dealt with most all of them at other places. In all truth I thought it got too much attention as well, but I also didn't see how I was responsible for that either.

To make a long story short, I was pummeled here for three straight days by every Internet crazy who ever had an agenda about not so much technique, but the attention technique justly or unjustly receives. That thread had 5000 views before it was mercifully deleted, and for that I thank Bernhard, Dogbreath /Thomas/ and others. But to say none of that never happened is incomprehensible. With that said, I'm sure Tom Grossett, Waterson and others would be glad to share similar accounts.

And while saying this let it be clearly misunderstood that again I am responding to the following statement.

Maybe that does happen at times but I can't think of a single example on this forum.

I hope that was cleared up for anyone who thinks otherwise.

Some of you also have to understand that these forums have been up long before many of you ever knew they existed. In many cases some new to this take into these cultures your own value systems from the real world, when sometimes there is nothing about some of the overall logic that even closely resembles reality.

Now with all that said would I have foregone my five years of forum experience given the chance? No not at all, because on balance I'm much better off having been a part of the DW community, fights and all. This was also IMO the best of the lot by a wide margin. To say otherwise would be wrong, because I would have to pretend that I didn't have a lot of wonderful experiences here, and yes I became not only a better known drummer through it all, but a better drummer period via all the great talks I had here. And the straight fact is these outlets are where my generation had their biggest talks and learned a number of their life lessons.

As I start to do a little better now, I run into a higher class of player who also claim that forums were the outlet for the younger guys they've known, and don't think that a whole lot of them don't read these things and at the very least aren't remarkably fascinated. Yes, they are enjoying their careers, but in doing so they're more likely to be near a laptop in their spare time not less.

But it also has to be understood that we've all had a shared history and the tech battle thing was one of them, and it's not to be discounted, because it's part of a shared culture that shouldn't also be devalued when convenient and/or misunderstood. And maybe when someone asks you nicely to let this topic go, maybe the correct response shouldn't be to discount that either.

And when people want to discuss misunderstandings and devote this kind of time to motive related to what might have happened, let's be at least equally aware that some things actually did happen and I have police reports to prove it. And yeah, I am enjoying what I'm doing, but it's hard not to take some of that seriously while it's going on.