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  #1  
Old 07-21-2013, 05:50 PM
denisri denisri is offline
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Default Development of triplet and 16th note ride patterns

Hi Fellow drummers
Looking for your input with respect to development of triplet and sixteenth note HH or ride cymbal patterns(ie:right hand). I can hold a triplet pattern to about 128BPM and 16th note to about 74-76 bpm for 4 min's.
I would like to get triplets to about 148 BPM and 16th's to about 80PBM.
Any suggestions on practice techniques? I work on slow monition and relax approaches and uptempo. Fingers,wrist and full arm etc.
Thanks Denis
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  #2  
Old 07-21-2013, 07:34 PM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
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Default Re: Development of triplet and 16th note ride patterns

You just have to do it a lot. Play a lot of bossa nova. Those guys are masters of fast running singles on the cymbal. Lowering your stick heights, and playing more flat-wristed helps, as well as putting your index finger on top of the stick, which helps control the rebound and dynamics, and gets the stick moving to the next hit fasteró you can experiment with that, at least. I would be trying to get your speed up around 94-96 bpm for your 16th notes, or the equivalent rate of triplets. Those Brazilian players and probably Marky Ramone can do it faster, but realistically, 96 is generally as fast as you need to do it.
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  #3  
Old 07-21-2013, 08:01 PM
denisri denisri is offline
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Default Re: Development of triplet and 16th note ride patterns

Hi Todd
Helpful! Thanks Denis
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Old 07-21-2013, 08:16 PM
cornelius cornelius is offline
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Default Re: Development of triplet and 16th note ride patterns

Quote:
Originally Posted by denisri View Post
Hi Fellow drummers
Looking for your input with respect to development of triplet and sixteenth note HH or ride cymbal patterns(ie:right hand). I can hold a triplet pattern to about 128BPM and 16th note to about 74-76 bpm for 4 min's.
I would like to get triplets to about 148 BPM and 16th's to about 80PBM.
Any suggestions on practice techniques? I work on slow monition and relax approaches and uptempo. Fingers,wrist and full arm etc.
Thanks Denis
Freestroke - then Moeller. You should be able to hit those tempos easily with a formal Freestroke, using the sticks rebound. Then to get to those uber tempos, get a little help from the Moeller stroke. But you have to master the Freestroke, first!
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Old 07-21-2013, 09:53 PM
denisri denisri is offline
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Default Re: Development of triplet and 16th note ride patterns

Hi Cornelius
Thank You. Very familiar with free strokes. Moeller in use. I max out in tempo at 16th's at around 78 BPM(right hand) and triplets are around 128BPM.
I can lock in and play "Use me" clean and solid....Can't maintain Up tempo Bossa nova's(i.e.:in the 80BPM's plus).
I'm working to refine my triplet and 16th note ride patterns with fill work and open suggested drills and techniques.
Once again Thanks for the comment on Moeller. Denis
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  #6  
Old 07-22-2013, 04:42 AM
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Ian Ballard Ian Ballard is offline
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Default Re: Development of triplet and 16th note ride patterns

Two videos that directly apply to your dilemma.

Jim Chapin, the authority on Moeller:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgmPaXU01TU

Jeff Porcaro, arguably the greatest session drummer of our time, who specialized in one-handed 16th patterns (as opposed to alternating stroke patterns)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nihrd_iYZhY
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  #7  
Old 07-22-2013, 05:44 AM
cornelius cornelius is offline
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Default Re: Development of triplet and 16th note ride patterns

Quote:
Originally Posted by denisri View Post
Hi Cornelius
Thank You. Very familiar with free strokes. Moeller in use. I max out in tempo at 16th's at around 78 BPM(right hand) and triplets are around 128BPM.
I can lock in and play "Use me" clean and solid....Can't maintain Up tempo Bossa nova's(i.e.:in the 80BPM's plus).
I'm working to refine my triplet and 16th note ride patterns with fill work and open suggested drills and techniques.
Once again Thanks for the comment on Moeller. Denis
ok, "Use Me" is around 78ish, but you'll find when you can hit right handed 16ths at tempos above, that the groove will become even more clean and solid.

IMO the 2 to 50 warm-up is really helpful to get your rebound in a good place. Then for Moeller, try playing Pumping Motion Left hand accented triplets for 5 Min, right hand, then both together. Then slow down the tempo and try 16ths...

Also "Stick Control" and "Accents and Rebounds" is really helpful...
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Old 07-22-2013, 12:56 PM
denisri denisri is offline
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Default Re: Development of triplet and 16th note ride patterns

Hi Ian
Good material. Nice to revisit Jim's video! What I find interesting is Jeff right hand position with respect to the HH. From the camera shoot it appears to be below the HH cymbals, front and center to his body and between the inner rim of the snare and his lower body....for more of an lower position vs right hand equal to or above the HH.
He also seems to be more hand/wrist and front finger fulcrum vs lots of arm motion. Perhaps this is where his speed is coming from...Thanks Denis
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  #9  
Old 07-22-2013, 01:05 PM
denisri denisri is offline
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Default Re: Development of triplet and 16th note ride patterns

Hi Cornelius
I'm old.....what does IMO mean? Agree, I want to achieve higher tempos with my right hand for triplet and 16th note grove deveopment! What tempos would you approach the moeller workout for triplets and 16th's. My top speed on a pad would be 130for triplets and low 90's for 16th notes.
Once again thanks for the information. Denis
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  #10  
Old 07-22-2013, 07:55 PM
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Ian Ballard Ian Ballard is offline
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Default Re: Development of triplet and 16th note ride patterns

Quote:
Originally Posted by denisri View Post
Hi Ian
Good material. Nice to revisit Jim's video! What I find interesting is Jeff right hand position with respect to the HH. From the camera shoot it appears to be below the HH cymbals, front and center to his body and between the inner rim of the snare and his lower body....for more of an lower position vs right hand equal to or above the HH.
He also seems to be more hand/wrist and front finger fulcrum vs lots of arm motion. Perhaps this is where his speed is coming from...Thanks Denis
Good observations. I loved watching Jeff play. The guy always looked happy and grateful to be doing what he was doing and it showed in his playing. I guess the moral of the story is, be happy. That'll automatically make you a little better. Hal Blaine once said, regarding jaded musicians in the studio, "If you smile, you'll stay a while... if you pout, you're out!"

:)
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  #11  
Old 07-26-2013, 04:26 PM
cornelius cornelius is offline
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Default Re: Development of triplet and 16th note ride patterns

Quote:
Originally Posted by denisri View Post
Hi Cornelius
I'm old.....what does IMO mean? Agree, I want to achieve higher tempos with my right hand for triplet and 16th note grove deveopment! What tempos would you approach the moeller workout for triplets and 16th's. My top speed on a pad would be 130for triplets and low 90's for 16th notes.
Once again thanks for the information. Denis
IMO = In my opinion... :D

For triplets you should be hitting around 144, and even above that... For 16ths, between 100/110... As I mentioned before, Stone's "Accents and Rebounds" is great - the newest printing of the book is especially nice because Dom Famiularo helped with the notation. The original book didn't spell out the "choreography" of where your sticks are supposed to be, to get the most out of the exercises...
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  #12  
Old 07-26-2013, 05:10 PM
denisri denisri is offline
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Default Re: Development of triplet and 16th note ride patterns

Cornelius
Thanks..very helpful....Denis
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  #13  
Old 07-26-2013, 05:48 PM
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larryace larryace is offline
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Default Re: Development of triplet and 16th note ride patterns

Quote:
Originally Posted by denisri View Post
Hi Fellow drummers
Looking for your input with respect to development of triplet and sixteenth note HH or ride cymbal patterns(ie:right hand). I can hold a triplet pattern to about 128BPM and 16th note to about 74-76 bpm for 4 min's.
I would like to get triplets to about 148 BPM and 16th's to about 80PBM.
Any suggestions on practice techniques? I work on slow monition and relax approaches and uptempo. Fingers,wrist and full arm etc.
Thanks Denis
I use a fast one handed triplet pattern A LOT at gigs, particularly during blues guitar solos. I tried what you are saying to a metronome and 148 is fast for a triplet. I can't maintain it. I can do it for a few bars, that's it. I max out at 136. After that I am working too hard and go two handed. If I am straining too hard, it won't sound as good as if I'm relaxed. Not saying you shouldn't keep trying. To me it's like revving first gear up too high. I have zero ceiling at 136 but I can maintain it. I don't know what to tell you, except HIT THAT THING FASTER MAN! LOL! I don't want to work THAT hard, I don't know why you would need to go that fast with one hand, but have at it!
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  #14  
Old 07-26-2013, 11:42 PM
denisri denisri is offline
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Default Re: Development of triplet and 16th note ride patterns

Hi Larryace
My take on this practice pad triplets shoot for 144. 16th's notes 105.
My Actual playing(my real world)triplets 130(should cover upbeat country)16th notes 80 BPM. ?? ie: Can't you hear me knocking....Use Me both around 78 BPM.
Denis
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  #15  
Old 07-27-2013, 01:08 AM
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Jeff Almeyda Jeff Almeyda is offline
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Default Re: Development of triplet and 16th note ride patterns

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Originally Posted by denisri View Post
Hi Ian
He also seems to be more hand/wrist and front finger fulcrum vs lots of arm motion. Perhaps this is where his speed is coming from...Thanks Denis
You just hit it on the head. The motion gets smaller the faster you go.

In unaccented ride patterns such as straight 16ths at 80 BPM plus, the motion will be coming from the fingers. Big arm and wrist motions will get you tired and will not sound as light and clean.

To clear up the use of Moeller in ride patterns... Moeller is not a "speed" technique. Essentially, it is a way of accenting single notes within a flow of notes without engaging the wrist. This "whipping motion" allows accented patterns to be played at high speeds without exhausting the wrist.

An unaccented ride pattern (like "Tom Sawyer" by Rush) would not use Moeller. The tempo is irrelevant, it's the accents or lack thereof that decide when to whip.
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  #16  
Old 07-27-2013, 01:27 AM
denisri denisri is offline
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Default Re: Development of triplet and 16th note ride patterns

Hi Jeff
Thank You for the input...good to know I'm on the right track. Denis
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