What makes it real?

opentune said:

Sure I'd love to sit on Buddy's Slingerland's for an hour, and those old Ludwig's are more collectible than todays, but to me neither of these are no more 'real' than anybody else's kits including those rolling off the assembly line today.

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And Buddy would totally agree with you. Other than towards the end of his career when the guy at Eames (Joe McSweeney, I think) found him an old Radio King set and put it together for him, Buddy always played whatever was new and good. There are many stories about his being on the look out for the ultimate snare for his style, so he was a gear hawk as much as he said that "it didn't matter". He was always at the forefront of the newest drum technology, just like the big names are today.

For me, each company(that isn't no name) has a kit in its catalogue that says, "This is the way we think drums are supposed to be built." This may not be the most expensive kit in their catalogue, too. After they have developed their signature product, they then try to simulate it as best they can to make it more affordable for more drummers and a larger bottom line. In doing this they almost always fall short, and it is as such that I consider these products to not be their real product. They may be great drums in their own right, but they're a forged signature and don't belong in the same pedigree as the signature product. That isn't to say they aren't real drums, they're just synthetics. When it comes to Gretsch, they have their USA Customs, New Classics, Brooklyns, and Renowns. They all contain the silver sealer and are designed in a way that embodies "That great Gretsch sound." They then have the Catalinas which, while they're great drums and can come close to achieving the sound of the Renowns and USA Customs, don't have the silver sealers and are somewhat of a stepchild for Gretsch. I think it's wise that companies like Fender and DW don't try to put these models off as their respective brand, they rename them as another and add their name to the end of it"{Pacific, Squier} by {DW,Fender}".

Different years and eras is another thing entirely- many companies don't tinker too much with their signature products too much, and as such I think this is mostly personal preference.

As for the new Club Dates, regardless of whether or not they are Real Ludwigs, are well worth the trees cut down and the metal forged to make them. I hope more companies can make quality products for as cheap as these.

I have enought kits to comment. To me its about the sound. I have played 60's 3 ply Luddies, acrolites, classic maples, tama rock stars, ddrum monster kits, my old as hell mapex kit, my gretsch kits.... its all about the sound. I am lusting after fancy drums but I love my catalina kit's sound. When I find something I like better I will buy it and it will be my "real". Probably be a new kit too. Real for me is about the sound, not age.

I think a lot of collectors are older and the reason 60's drums have value is because they are from this generations' childhood and they remember them. The baby boomers are driving the same high prices in 60's american muscle cars. In 30 years, a new generation (mine) will be coveting the drums of our childhoods and the value of todays drums will be high. Maybe not as high but high.

I think this is all about drum snobbery. I play a Mapex Saturn, the butt of the drumming joke around here, due to the not inconsiderable weight of view of one previous member and the reactions of others to it.

Do I care? Nope. I buy the best I can afford. Am I happy with them- totally. Do I give a monkey's if they are considered real or not by others? No I don't. Why? Because I'm an adult and I can make my own mind up and take a different path rather than follow the crowd.

There will always be people who need to have the next greatest thing, There will be those who like older items for personal or sentimental reasons and there will be those who make choices for purely pragmatic, practical reasons. No one is right or wrong, they are just all following their truth.

bigiainw said:

I think this is all about drum snobbery.

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Some have talked about manufacturing differences and ageing so snobbery isn't the only reason, though buying positional goods is a national pastime ...

I'd agree that that motivations are often more cultural than physical, though as per . Steve's excellent post (#4) about the history of the drums.

I can't imagine how it would feel to be a Mapex Saturn user in the forum's post-Sticks era lol

@ Johnny - about your comment "... it's "real" when something special happens and you connect with a kit in a completely transparent and functional way".

Nice turn of phrase but I'm not sure what you mean by "transparent" ... that playing flows easily because no irritations are standing in your way?

Pollyanna said:

I can't imagine how it would feel to be a Mapex Saturn user in the forum's post-Sticks era lol

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And with that the bus is now careening in yet another direction

mmulcahy1 said:

A Toyota that's built in the U.S. is still a "Japanese" vehicle and a Ford built in Canada is still and "American" vehicle.

We live in a world that has a world economy now. Gretsch, Ludwig, Sonor, Tama, (insert other brand names here) all have build factories in other locations for their entry, mid-point and professional lines of equipment.

it's basically the "CUSTOM" labeled equipment like the USA Customs, for example that are produced in the U.S. or the top of the line Sonors that are bult in Germany.

Look at all the cell phones. Apple iPhone, Samsung Galaxy, Motorola Razr, etc. They are all built in China or Taiwan or some place like that. And they're all top of the line products.

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IMO - outsourcing for the purpose of obtaining less expensive labor doesn't make the drums less real - it makes the company less real. Even if it's a financial necessity to remain in business.
That said, my Stage Customs say 'Made in China' on the badge, yet I'm happy to have them.

To open another can of worms, what makes it real for me, is acoustic, as compared to electronic.

Since my post spawned this thread here is my answer.
My first kit was a 60's Slingerland.
My second kit was a mid 70's Gretsch.
I bought several modern 45 degree edged kits in the 2000's
I sold the Gretsch a few years ago and I missed it.
I bought the Club Date because it reminded me of the Gretsch.
I then missed my Slingerland.
I found the 68 Ludwig.
I always wanted a 60's Ludwig so I bought what I consider to be the "Real Thing"
I will play the 68 Ludwig for the first time tomorrow night and I will let everyone know if in fact it is, "The Real Thing"
I have a feeling that it will be for me

The Real Thing is a relative term, just like Time, Space, and Matter.
I am into Quantum Physics too

When I saw this picture on Steve Maxwell's website, I saw, "The Real Thing!"

Bo Eder said:

And Buddy would totally agree with you. Other than towards the end of his career when the guy at Eames (Joe McSweeney, I think) found him an old Radio King set and put it together for him, Buddy always played whatever was new and good. There are many stories about his being on the look out for the ultimate snare for his style, so he was a gear hawk as much as he said that "it didn't matter". He was always at the forefront of the newest drum technology, just like the big names are today.

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Bo Eder said:

Nope. But before this thread digresses to the point that "any toy drumset will do", what makes what you have the real thing? For instance, I have a 1980 Ludwig Supraphonic - what makes me not pine for another snare? I suppose that would be the feeling I'm looking for here. What I have must be the real thing because I'm not wanting anything else? When someone shows me the new wunderdrums, what makes me happy to have what I have? The fact that they're real?

I suppose I'm debating between the blue pill or the red pill

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bobdadruma said:

Since my post spawned this thread here is my answer.
My first kit was a 60's Slingerland.
My second kit was a mid 70's Gretsch.
I bought several modern 45 degree edged kits in the 2000's
I sold the Gretsch a few years ago and I missed it.
I bought the Club Date because it reminded me of the Gretsch.
I then missed my Slingerland.
I found the 68 Ludwig.
I always wanted a 60's Ludwig so I bought what I consider to be the "Real Thing"
I will play the 68 Ludwig for the first time tomorrow night and I will let everyone know if in fact it is, "The Real Thing"
I have a feeling that it will be for me

The Real Thing is a relative term, just like Time, Space, and Matter.
I am into Quantum Physics too

When I saw this picture on Steve Maxwell's website, I saw, "The Real Thing!"

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From what I see here, it seems it's more of a personal, sentimental attachment that makes it "real". Which is perfectly fine.

I guess this could go for anything too. If your first car was a Camaro, do you really pine for a classic Mustang? Neither one is really better. Well, there are certainly arguments for that too, but I hope you see my point.

@ Bo -- I suspect you have the "real thing" probably for the same reason I believe I do too. You've learned all the nuances of your snare and it has become "your sound". So why would you pine for anything else That emotional attachment that makes it "real".

Red pill or blue pill; Ford or Chevy; dogs or cats; Ludwig or Gretsch....everyone has a different "real".

My Ludwig supralite snare is not US made but it is a real Ludwig snare.

Pollyanna said:

I can't imagine how it would feel to be a Mapex Saturn user in the forum's post-Sticks era lol

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The word uncomfortable comes to mind. Although, to be fair, I quite like being anti-fashion. And it is quite funny when people pay much more for much less, simply because of a name.

Obviously though, I don't really fit the profile as I don't own any Sabians...

My take on the topic is that it's mostly marketing, and the significant after effect, perception.

I would replace the term real with something to the effect of "top of the line for that company".

You can't classify perception, it's different for everyone. So in the end, a Chinese made Sonor to me is still a Sonor, just a less expensive Sonor than their top of the line kits. No less real. just less expensive.

You could call it spin.

From 1962-66 I had a 4 piece club date set and then sold that and got a super classic set
that I kept until 1979. The local 5 star drum shop has a new club date set and while it brought back memories I couldn't help but notice that the hardware "seemed different".
I'm not talking about the difference between the nickel plate I had way back when compared to the chrome on display...the new hardware struck me as slightly different, that's all.

(I'm thinking Slingerlands heyday was 50's and Ludwig 60's, heehee).

I'll chime in again: I couldn't care less if my drums are top shelf for that brand, so long as I can get them to the sound I want without inordinate effort. I've played Stage Customs for 15 years and have let opportunities to "upgrade" pass on by because I'm totally happy with what I have. Heads and tuning usually more than make up for the shell material and construction -- although as mentioned in my other thread, a quality drum makes it easier to get to that sound.

Cymbals and hardware are a bit different. I'm not about to settle for a less-than-top-shelf cymbal, because to my ears they just don't compete in terms of sonic quality. Hardware has to do its job, and if a manufacturer's hardware doesn't consistently work, I stop using it. I've moved away from both Pearl and Gibraltar in the last five years for those reasons.

Do I lust for a Supra or a set of Recording Customs? Yes, because they are nice and because to some extent I'm no more immune to good marketing and word-of-mouth than the next guy. Besides which, if they were good enough for Gadd, they are probably good enough for me.

Mad About Drums said:

You also mentioned custom kits in the OP, the new Guru Origin are not "custom" drums, they're a line of their own, ie: the performance range and the classic range, those kits are standard Guru line, only the Custom range allows you some custom orders, so they're similar as the major manufacturers in that sense.

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Correct Henri Same goes for Craviotto too. In defence of most drummers though, "custom" is applied to anything that isn't from a mainstream manufacturer.

In relation to "real", I think it applies to anything that's different. The rest in some way perceived as inferior, compared to the original, or best example of a line. That's a highly personal & subjective view, as each individual finds value or attractiveness in a specific era or set of features.

On "transparent", the point I was trying to make is that the kit is a conduit for expression.

Without getting too "new agey" or something, it seems like an authentic taoist paradox that when the player bonds with the kit, the kit is transcended. As music happens, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. People come together around this stuff, and its beautiful.

I'm making an interpretation of "real" in the context of a player trumping collector. I'm not saying collectors are somehow beneath drummers. I'm saying my understanding of instruments stems predominantly from their use to create and share sounds with others.

Ironically, I have Champagne taste and a beer pocketbook. I thoroughly enjoy my modest tubs (and chops), but it is conceivable to me that I'd be happier with Gurus. ;^)

Toolate said:

I think a lot of collectors are older and the reason 60's drums have value is because they are from this generations' childhood and they remember them. The baby boomers are driving the same high prices in 60's american muscle cars. In 30 years, a new generation (mine) will be coveting the drums of our childhoods and the value of todays drums will be high. Maybe not as high but high.

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Agree with your reasoning on 60's era drums.

Disagree that "today's" drums will go up.

In the 80's, 20 year drum kits (i.e. from the 1960s) were considered collectible and sold at a premium.

Today, a 20 year old kit from 1993 is just a 20 year old kit. Zero premium paid for it. A 25-30 year old kit from the 1980's is not only not collectible, they usually sell super cheap because few people want them (Tama Superstars being the only possible exception).

The only kits that considered collectible and sell for high prices are the same exact kits that were considered collectible and sold for a high price in 1988: Drums from the 1960s.

And right now the market is so flooded with drum makers. It's hard to see anything from today becoming considered rare enough to warrant a premium price.