Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Ismore
Unwelcome, unlooked for sexual advances, this is a first?


Whether it is or not, does that make it right?



People are conditioned to think a certain way... R-W, its that conditioning that creates a misunderstanding. Its not weather its right, or wrong, its what it is.

Saying it shouldn't exist isn't going to help. You accept to be part of it, or not.



There is very little "real life" about this forum compared to the general drumming scene. Those here are generally way more informed, open, & forward thinking.

I believe most on this forum represent the drumming scene, a lot of the drummers on this forum are the drumming scene, they're out there doing it. There are many more who out there who aren't, but IMO this forum represents the consciousness of the drumming scene in general.


Sexual advance towards women are clearly at a different degree in the UK than here in the states.
 
I've ran into many, many situations where people assume a host of things about me just because of my career. Many of them are not very nice, and one of them is that I'm untrustable and easy. Add in stupid ("Who would want a career in music if you weren't just stupid?" I've heard that for real, and it was meant)and an alcoholic/drug addict/poor and now you really have someone you daughter wants to date.

If they see you and assume you are easy, and stupid and possibly addicted to drugs, then you can see why they say the things they say.

You're right: it's all about assumptions. I know we all do it, we're all only human and fallible, and we can't always help the thoughts that pop into our heads - but actually expressing them ... I'm almost (but not quite) lost for words. At the same time though, John, I really and truly do look like a perfectly ordinary, sensibly-shod, flowery-scarved middle-aged mother, so quite WHAT these guys have assumed I have no idea!

You accept to be part of it, or not.

I'm not absolutely sure I understand you clearly. Do you mean that because it happens, we should either put up with it or not put ourselves in a situation where it might happen?

I think it's fairer to make the bad guys responsible for their actions. There are always going to be some numb-nuts, but attitudes can be challenged and changed, and it's incumbent on all of us to do our best to achieve this, particularly those who are able to exert peer-pressure.

Sexual advance towards women are clearly at a different degree in the UK than here in the states.

I'm not saying it doesn't exist over here, and maybe I live in a bubble, but this present incident is the first of its kind I've experienced since I was 20.
 
Ooooh boy, a sexism thread! I'm a little late to this party..and mostly a lurker. anyway, I have a couple cents.

I'm glad so many people here are so forward-thinking and that Drummerworld is such a great resource, both for men and women. I wish the gender conversation was over and done with, but sadly, it isn't.

I mean, we all (on this forum at least!) know men and women have equal value as human beings. That's a non-story. The problem that remains is those much more subtle, ingrained, yet difficult-to-notice gender assumptions that we all can fall prey to without even being aware of it. It's NOT EASY in this world, for anyone! I'd rather the genders work together, I hate this "gender wars" junk that only drives us further apart.

For me, as a young 20-something drummer who probably grew up with more women in music than a lot of others before me, I'm extremely lucky. Magenta (or is it Madge??), I don't know you, but I can't imagine how frustrating that must have been. I can't add to what others have said except...keep on going!! You shouldn't have to deal with that kind of crap, but I'm encouraged that it may slowly continue to diminish. And by talking about it, and being aware of our own possible biases, we can get rid of it a little faster.

I do want to address the whole youtube drummer trend I see mentioned sometimes. I agree that there are some "Youtube personalities" who get more attention than they necessarily deserve. But hear me out for a bit... On these videos, say, Meytal Cohen, I would see first a lot of, "OMG hot girl drummer lol!!1one!", followed by critique of her technique in some way (which is fine if it's constructive, that's not what bothers me). Then the inevitable, "why is this girl so famous, she's not even that good! I work just as hard if not harder, but I'm a guy so my video only has like 20 views!" And I sympathize with those guys. And when anyone gets credit due to appearance alone, that's completely WRONG, regardless of gender.

But, here's my problem. There sometimes seems to be this attitude of, "Oh, she only got famous because of her looks/gender!" So even if it's true, and sometimes it must be, the girl's talent - or lack thereof- came second to her gender. And when a guy is really talented, I don't see "oh, he's only famous because of his looks/macho-ness!" or appearance-related put downs. You see what I'm saying?

And really, how famous are these Youtube celebrities anyway? You talk to non-musicians in real life, outside of the Internet, it seems they haven't heard of a Meytal Cohen or Capulette...or even Sheila E (and she's not just a Youtube drummer!!). So I feel like the idea of some women "milking their looks" and getting ahead in that way is sometimes overstated. When it does happen, I agree it needs to be shut down right away.

IN NO WAY do I want special treatment as a "girl drummer," in fact I'd rather my gender never come up at all. Most of us are not just doing this for attention - we're doing it because we LOVE DRUMS, like all of us on this forum :) The solution isn't quotas or giving girls a leg up over other more skilled players.. and I don't think that was ever the argument. It's about equal opportunity TO play - and fortunately, we're far ahead of where we used to be in that regard. So Magenta, I think you and I and the many many other "female drummers" out here just need to keep on keeping on - and speaking up when we can. That'll help shut 'em up. Eventually, the playing speaks for itself! Okay... soapbox...I'm getting off of it..
 
So Magenta, I think you and I and the many many other "female drummers" out here just need to keep on keeping on - and speaking up when we can. That'll help shut 'em up. Eventually, the playing speaks for itself! Okay... soapbox...I'm getting off of it..

Absolutely - and not just the "female drummers". All the right-thinking, decent men. And non-drummers of any gender!

PS my friends call me Madge :)
 
This is an interesting thread, to say the least.

I'd like to also point out the attitudes I've seen towards transgendered individuals as being discriminatory and entirely unfounded. I had a very enlightening conversation recently with somebody I know about transgendered people and I learned an awful lot, partly because that individual was willing to challenge and correct me in various presumptions that I had. I must note that I have never had any feelings of ill-regard towards transgendered individuals but I was simply ignorant!

I wish that people could have informed conversations about gender issues, whatever gender it regards. What we see as 'norms', especially with regard to sports, hobbies, interests, roles and abilities should be challenged and questioned. It always irritates me when people make the presumption that females like pink - that's an entirely false construct (and a colour that was traditionally used to represent young boys a long time ago). The idea of 'toys for girls' and 'toys for boys' is another arbitrary construct. I've seen parents refusing to buy toys for their children because they're 'too girly' or 'too boyish', etc. These are attitudes that are reinforced by parents in childhood and ones I take real issue with.

Ramble over. For now.
 
That only makes sense if you assume that the seats belong to men by default until some women can prove themselves qualified to take them. Men get advanced for all kinds of reasons other than merit, especially if half of the population is out of the running altogether because of incorrect genitals. Suddenly holding women to a strict merit standard when everyone else clearly isn't being held to it, is basically what sexism is.


I know exactly what sexism is, and political parties having "Quotas" Is part of the problem, not the solution. It leaves the women chosen by the parties open to remarks regarding there capabilities regardless of how qualified or capable they may be.
It is the process in general that needs to change, jobs for the boys and the old boy network need to be dismantled for both government and industry to thrive. Jobs on merit, not what schools you attended.

Oh.... and more female drummers, I bet Prince's tour bus smells much better than the average.
 
It leaves the women chosen by the parties open to remarks regarding there capabilities regardless of how qualified or capable they may be.

Indeed, this is a good distraction so that we stop making remarks about how qualified or capable the men are.

Oh.... and more female drummers, I bet Prince's tour bus smells much better than the average.
Dunno, I saw his solid gold bathtub up on eBay a while back... Hard times I guess.
 
I would only ask that you as a female be the first to jump on any thread that starts with the Female Drummer or girl reference and let them know that there are only drummers on this forum. I think that will only strengthen your resolve.

She can try, but I think I speak for all the women on this forum when I say that it's not unreasonable to ask that everybody exercise their right to ridicule the users of "female drummer" or whatever term :)

Agin.. There are no women. There are only men. Half of men have vaginas, a flipped chromosome, etc.

The entire women/woman thing was made up, so that dicks could control the men with vaginas.

You probably understand by now why even modern-day-feminists and I don't see eye to eye.

Men-as-default, gender-genital-equating... lots of stuff here.

That only makes sense if you assume that the seats belong to men by default until some women can prove themselves qualified to take them. Men get advanced for all kinds of reasons other than merit, especially if half of the population is out of the running altogether because of incorrect genitals. Suddenly holding women to a strict merit standard when everyone else clearly isn't being held to it, is basically what sexism is.

Absolutely, Todd, great point.

But, here's my problem. There sometimes seems to be this attitude of, "Oh, she only got famous because of her looks/gender!" So even if it's true, and sometimes it must be, the girl's talent - or lack thereof- came second to her gender. And when a guy is really talented, I don't see "oh, he's only famous because of his looks/macho-ness!" or appearance-related put downs. You see what I'm saying?

Exactly right. Slut-shaming is unacceptable.

This is an interesting thread, to say the least.

I'd like to also point out the attitudes I've seen towards transgendered individuals as being discriminatory and entirely unfounded. I had a very enlightening conversation recently with somebody I know about transgendered people and I learned an awful lot, partly because that individual was willing to challenge and correct me in various presumptions that I had. I must note that I have never had any feelings of ill-regard towards transgendered individuals but I was simply ignorant!

I wish that people could have informed conversations about gender issues, whatever gender it regards. What we see as 'norms', especially with regard to sports, hobbies, interests, roles and abilities should be challenged and questioned. It always irritates me when people make the presumption that females like pink - that's an entirely false construct (and a colour that was traditionally used to represent young boys a long time ago). The idea of 'toys for girls' and 'toys for boys' is another arbitrary construct. I've seen parents refusing to buy toys for their children because they're 'too girly' or 'too boyish', etc. These are attitudes that are reinforced by parents in childhood and ones I take real issue with.

Ramble over. For now.

Hell yeah, Duncan. (If anyone else has questions about transgender people, please feel free to ask me, or look stuff up. Don't be uninformed.)

[/B]

I know exactly what sexism is, and political parties having "Quotas" Is part of the problem, not the solution. It leaves the women chosen by the parties open to remarks regarding there capabilities regardless of how qualified or capable they may be.
It is the process in general that needs to change, jobs for the boys and the old boy network need to be dismantled for both government and industry to thrive. Jobs on merit, not what schools you attended.

You missed his point, I think- second paragraph is good, but a quotum of any minority (or majority, in women's case) implies that the default would be the other party. It's not about a quotum- rather, about communities of white heterosexual cisgender men looking at all the same around them and hopefully realizing that they should get some other perspectives in there. I don't think many of these organizations have a strict numerical quota or anything, so we can't really turn against that for the purpose of protecting those minorities from uninformed people who aren't the responsibility of the minority to 'fix'.


By the way, genitals are not the ultimate determinant of someone's gender identity, so let's try to get out of this whole "penis = man, vagina = woman" thing. 'Kay? :)
 
[/B]...political parties having "Quotas" Is part of the problem, not the solution. It leaves the women chosen by the parties open to remarks regarding there capabilities regardless of how qualified or capable they may be.

Yeah, everyone basically agrees with that-- in the US, anyway, quotas are illegal, and no one is arguing in favor of changing that. I'm not so sure about it; the talent is there, and I don't see it as any more arbitrary a way of advancing people than the current system. It's also curious to me that people argue against affirmative action policies because they allegedly cast doubt on the qualifications of people who benefit from them, but they seem to be totally unworried that the current system of white male privilege creates any similar doubts about the abilities of white males.

It is the process in general that needs to change, jobs for the boys and the old boy network need to be dismantled for both government and industry to thrive. Jobs on merit, not what schools you attended.

That would be great, but there's not a lot of political momentum in that direction-- pretty much the opposite.
 
By the way, genitals are not the ultimate determinant of someone's gender identity, so let's try to get out of this whole "penis = man, vagina = woman" thing. 'Kay? :)

I mean, there's still a physical reality though, right? Would you consider the actual chromosomes involved, or is that just "old thinking" too?

Sorry. I think everyone should literally be able to do/think/say whatever the like as long as they don't hurt others, but sometimes this stuff goes way off the deep end in my mind. While the terms "man" and "woman" can indeed be taken in a philosophical light, I don't think that's how most people regard the terms.
 
But it isn't. So if it isn't in some places, why is it in others?

Maybe you're looking for it or subconciously provoking it.

I remember I used the term 'girl' a while back and that struck a nerve with you - you wanted me to use the word 'woman' because you felt the term was condescending. I believe you might be a bit sensitive.

I've had many ppl question my hobby as a drummer. Some like to hint that it's silly, or childish. I can imagine if I was a girl I'd probably jump to the conclusion that I had a mans hobby.

Who cares. Play your drums.
 
Maybe you're looking for it or subconciously provoking it.

I remember I used the term 'girl' a while back and that struck a nerve with you - you wanted me to use the word 'woman' because you felt the term was condescending. I believe you might be a bit sensitive.

Dre, you should know that Madge is a scholar of archaic literature. 'Girl' refers to any child in Middle English. I thought this was common knowledge? Of course calling somebody a child when they are a learned scribe is offensive.
 
And according to this article chicks don't dig being called girls.






Except for when they do.

It's all terribly confusing.
 
There are two sides to this:

1 - The person being addressed should take into account the subtext of how they are being addressed, beyond the terms used. Terms which may be not-their-favourite may be being used without any implication. 'Girl' is a good example.

B - Point 1 aside, if a person doesn't like being addressed in the chosen term, they are of course entirely reasonable if they ask to be addressed differently. 'Girl' is a good example.

Can't we all just get along....guys?
 
Nobody's calling you "boy".

Although save for the most derogatory and racist uses of the term, no one seems to get their knickers in a knot when anyone talks about being "one of the boys" or I say to my wife "I'm going out with the boys" either.

It's a funny thing regarding the sensitivities around the use of the word "girl". Not long after that last thread where issue was taken with the way in which the word was used, I asked my missus and 5 of her mates who were having a couple of pre-dinner drinks at ours, prior to a self declared "girls night out". Not a single one took exception to the word "girl" being used to represent grown women.......the youngest of which was 36 years old.
One even went as far to say that if women really wanted to 'fly the flag' on inequality, then there were far more pressing and relevant causes through which to do it. Whilst I'm aware that it was a tiny sample size, I still dare say something such as linked in Grea's post was exactly the kind of thing she was referring to.

Until I see some sort of consensus that women world wide are prepared to agree upon Porter, then I'm just not gonna be swayed that it's a cause worth the grief or attention that it's gained here on DW. So far, the largest "rocking of the boat" I've been privy to has occurred on a drum forum. No chance drummers.....even female drummers.....have more pressing issues of inequality to deal with?

I don't want to be one who is considered insensitive against anyone....really I don't. But sometimes I've gotta wonder if efforts could be better focused. This is definitely one such instance. Sometimes, you've gotta pick your fight. Not all of 'em have equal impact.
 
I don't want to be one who is considered insensitive against anyone....really I don't. But sometimes I've gotta wonder if efforts could be better focused. This is definitely one such instance. Sometimes, you've gotta pick your fight. Not all of 'em have equal impact.

I'm with this. Too much political correctness going on in the world today. I bear no malice toward anyone one of any gender or sexual orientation, nor do I accept blame for slights against anyone. I'm not against anyone who hasn't actively attacked me, really. If someone takes offense at my use of language, too bad for them. I know who I am. If someone else is too shortsighted to find out about who I am as an individual, that is their problem. There are truly more areas where we probably agree, so I would prefer to focus on them.

I always feel like saying "If I have offended you, then you must misunderstand me." Anyone I dislike will absolutely know it.
 
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