MOELLER METHOD

Re: Moeller Help

I have Jim Chapin's video and have also viewed various other videos; including Derrick's excellent videos. I have gotten quite adept at the one handed Moeller strokes, but putting the hands together is still mystifying me. I'm a little confused about your guy's explanation about the "l" (upstroke) on the last note of the triplet. Is the hand to hand Moeller triplet merely played Rrr Lll Rrr Lll? I can pull off pretty good single stoke triplets, but would really like to incorperate the Moeller stroke. Can any of you guys clarify the two handed Moeller? Would the hand to hand Moeller strokes also apply to eighths and sixteenths (i.e Rl Ll Rl Ll and Rrrr Llll Rrrr Llll). Thanks much for your help. Maybe I'll finally get this thing solved!
 
Re: Moeller Help

bean6022000 said:
I have Jim Chapin's video and have also viewed various other videos; including Derrick's excellent videos. I have gotten quite adept at the one handed Moeller strokes, but putting the hands together is still mystifying me. I'm a little confused about your guy's explanation about the "l" (upstroke) on the last note of the triplet. Is the hand to hand Moeller triplet merely played Rrr Lll Rrr Lll? I can pull off pretty good single stoke triplets, but would really like to incorperate the Moeller stroke. Can any of you guys clarify the two handed Moeller? Would the hand to hand Moeller strokes also apply to eighths and sixteenths (i.e Rl Ll Rl Ll and Rrrr Llll Rrrr Llll). Thanks much for your help. Maybe I'll finally get this thing solved!


Remember the mechanics that Moeller system describes; in order to play an accented note, the stick must start from an up position, being 'whipped' down onto the head- in order to get the stick to that up position, you must play an upstroke, where your hand moves upward whilst simultaneously letting the stick drop onto the head (thus playing an unaccented stroke).

So, if you're playing hand to hand, you must play an upstoke on the stroke immediately before the note you wish to accent:


R L R L R L
D U T D U T

D = Downstroke
U = Upstroke
T = Tapstroke (unaccented stroke played low to surface with no rebound)

Note how each hand is playing an upstroke immediately before their respective downstroke accented note.
This pattern of hand movements will apply to any note grouping played hand to hand, 8ths, 16ths, quintuplets, whatever. As long as the pattern is played hand to hand then the stroke preceding a downstroke must be an upstroke.
 
Re: Moeller Help

Thank you Jonescrusher. Yeah, I know in the Chapin video he goes over the Down-Tap-Up extensively, and I got that, but I don't think Mr. Chapin explained the two hands adequately. Based on your explanation, if I were playing hand to hand Moeller triplets (with the first note accented as in the Chapin and Derrick's video), wouldn't the sticking pattern be Rrr Lll Rrr Lll
DTU DTU DTU DTU ?

Thanks Much!
 
Re: Moeller Help

bean6022000 said:
Thank you Jonescrusher. Yeah, I know in the Chapin video he goes over the Down-Tap-Up extensively, and I got that, but I don't think Mr. Chapin explained the two hands adequately. Based on your explanation, if I were playing hand to hand Moeller triplets (with the first note accented as in the Chapin and Derrick's video), wouldn't the sticking pattern be Rrr Lll Rrr Lll
DTU DTU DTU DTU ?

Thanks Much!


No, that wouldn't be hand to hand. Hand to hand triplets will involve alternating the pattern you describe there between both hands. The sticking pattern will be as i describe it - DUT DUT - RH plays downstroke, LH plays upstroke (so preparing for following LH downstroke), RH plays tapstroke - LH plays downstroke, RH plays upstroke (preparing for following RH downstroke), LH plays tapstroke.

You need to take this kind of pattern very slowly at first, to ensure you're concentrating on the movement involved in each stroke. Take it down to 40bpm. One of the hardest things i found when learning moeller was getting a correct upstroke motion. It is quite hard to get a controlled stroke from just dropping the stick on the head. Get a teacher if you can!
 
Re: Moeller Help

hey guys,
thanks very much for the help. Derriks vid is very very useful. A teacher is definitly on the cards as soon as i can afford it!

one little question, following Derriks vid, when i was first doing the whip and allowing the rebound to happan the stick was flying back up in odd directions. I have my snare slightly tilted to the right so the left rim is slightly higher than the right rim (like a very scaled down version of a marching snare) so i've moved it so it's even. This has solved the rebound problem but... should i be persavering with the angle till i get it right? am i taking the soft option here rather than putting in the hard work?

thing is, i'm not set hard and fast in my ways, and could be talked round to keeping my snare straight all the time. Truth be told i'm just finding my feet again (after a massive gap) and finding myself more of a beginner than i remember.

anyways, if anyone could straighten me (ahem) out that's be peachy. I'll be carrying on with it level till someone tells me it's a terrible idea.

Joe
 
Re: Moeller Help

Bean,

Yeah, having a teacher for this stuff helps a lot because it's kind of hard to explain without face to face interaction.

Combining the hands is step two -after you get the technique happening with the hands individually. ...and it's harder.

Here's what helped me: When you combine the hands to play a roll, remember that neither of your hands individually is doing anything different than when you're playing the one-handed triplets. You're just staggering where your hands start the triplets so that they overlap:

I suggest trying it like this first:

R: D - T - U - D - T - U - D - T - U
L: - D - T - U - D - T - U - D - T - U

Then, you can move to the alternating accents, which to me is harder. Note that the left hand starts on 'up', but then plays regular triplets.

R: D - T - U - D - T - U - D - T - U
L: - U - D - T - U - D - T - U - D - T


I hope this isn't just confusing!

This second one is easy to 'overthink' -since you said you can play pretty good triplets with single strokes (I'm assuming this is what sticking you mean you can play with singles) it helps to just try and concentrate on the moeller motion and just 'feel' it -thinking about all the downs and taps and ups with this alternating pattern can end up just tripping you up.

There's some extra coordination going on with combining the hands and, even if you have the triplets down pretty solid with the hands individually, this is really hard at first -so don't get discouraged. Like has already been said -start slow and you'll get it!




Once you get these -then you can start departing from just triplets and get some stuff that's also really fun.




joe,

-I wouldn't worry about 'taking the soft option' -just do what feels best in terms of setup! -Billy ward puts this best when he says your drumset should be your ally.
 
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Re: Moeller Help

Jonescrusher and Auger:

Thank you very much for your excellent explanations. Boy did I ever have it wrong! I believe I got confused 'cause the videos focus so much on the one-handed Moeller Down-Tap-Up stroke, but really do not address the two hands; or if they do, it is so darn fast you can't really follow what is being done. Man do I ever have some work to do! Luckily my "conventional" single stroke triplets aren't too bad, and I can use those until I learn this two handed Moeller. I'm hoping to find a teacher in the local area that really knows this technique. As is evidenced by the numerous postings on this mystical Moeller subject, I'm not sure everyone has the same understanding; and I want to learn it the "right" way. I have enough bad habits to "unlearn." Once again, I am very grateful for your help, patience and understanding.
 
Re: Moeller Help

just getting towards the 'just let it rebound, let the stick do what it wants to do bit' pretty early on. The butt of the left stick keeps hitting my left leg... is this a set up issue? common problem? anyone share any stories?

it's funny, before i was on this forum i would have sat down and tried to work it out, now i'm here i can't think what i would have done without it...
Joe

edit: nope there's a definite problem, the index finger on my left hand is starting to hurt, my right is fine..........
 
Re: Moeller Help

JoeyMoon said:
just getting towards the 'just let it rebound, let the stick do what it wants to do bit' pretty early on. The butt of the left stick keeps hitting my left leg... is this a set up issue? common problem? anyone share any stories?

it's funny, before i was on this forum i would have sat down and tried to work it out, now i'm here i can't think what i would have done without it...
Joe

edit: nope there's a definite problem, the index finger on my left hand is starting to hurt, my right is fine..........

JoeyMoon - it sounds like you have two problems, your grip and your snare position. If you keep practising, over weeks and months your grip on the stick will become more solid and your control of the rebound will improve. Remember that it takes many hours of practice to get really comfortable with a new system like moeller, you're unlikely to see results overnight early on.

Is your snare set low ie. the rim of the snare is level with or lower than the top of your leg?
You should have the drum positioned to a height at which you can rimshot comfortably without any part of the stick hitting the top of your leg.
 
Re: Moeller Help

You know how I got these Moeller triplets with both hands? I started with playing triplets as usual and then I payed my attantion on playing ONLY the accents and for a bit not worrying about rebounds or being sloppy, just getting the feel of it, eventually, since I had trained my both hands isolated one form another it wasn't hard anymore to get a controll over these rebounds

If you can play these triplets when you only feel like you are only playing the accents then it's the right way!
 
Re: Moeller Help

jonescrusher said:
JoeyMoon - it sounds like you have two problems, your grip and your snare position. If you keep practising, over weeks and months your grip on the stick will become more solid and your control of the rebound will improve. Remember that it takes many hours of practice to get really comfortable with a new system like moeller, you're unlikely to see results overnight early on.

Is your snare set low ie. the rim of the snare is level with or lower than the top of your leg?
You should have the drum positioned to a height at which you can rimshot comfortably without any part of the stick hitting the top of your leg.


thanks for that,
yeah i know and i'm not expecting over night miracles, i'm just very nervous of anything that's causing me pain as i don't want to keep at it and cause an injury...

quite right though, i did definitly experience a change, must have just altered my grip slightly and the pain was not so bad.

My snare is (now) comfotably high enough to play rim shots without hitting my leg. I think the problem was that i was following through too far on the initial whip to get the power, then as the rebound occured the butt of the stick was hitting my leg because my hand was too low. Watched the video again and came to the conclusion that ALL the power and even the follow through is generated through the whip motion and timing that correctly.

This really is fasinating, i've found it one of the most 'think about able' techniqes from a very early stage... if that makes sense. I might put something more later... at work now, must run.

Thanks for the advice guys
Joe
 
Practising the Moeller on Tradional AND Matched

Hey guys ;)
I was wondering if it would be good to practise the moeller for like 5 times a week
20 mins per day - 10 mins on macthed and 10 mins on tradtitional
Would it be good or is it just waisting time?
 
Re: Practising the Moeller on Tradional AND Matched

jazzsnob said:
Depends on how you practice.

10 mins moeller triplets on matched
5 mins break
10 mins moeller triplets on traditional
what do you think?
 
Re: Practising the Moeller on Tradional AND Matched

I practice both. Its not like you should just do it in one grip. Im much better at matched, but its still fun trying both out.
 
Re: Practising the Moeller on Tradional AND Matched

I think practicing the Moeller is great no matter how you do it. My students practice both ways, every day. 20 minutes a day is good, but continue working on the exercises you choose for as long as you can manage each day. Limiting yourself to 20 minutes a day can do exactly that, limit your abilities. As long as you continue to work on the areas where you need improvement, you can do no wrong :) Keep playing! Ted
 
Re: Practising the Moeller on Tradional AND Matched

Mr. A.C. Perkins said:
I think practicing the Moeller is great no matter how you do it. My students practice both ways, every day. 20 minutes a day is good, but continue working on the exercises you choose for as long as you can manage each day. Limiting yourself to 20 minutes a day can do exactly that, limit your abilities. As long as you continue to work on the areas where you need improvement, you can do no wrong :) Keep playing! Ted

Thanks for the good advise! ;)
Man this is no doubt a great drum community :)
OH by the way...
After the first week I´ll increase the pratise to 10 mor mins for each grip

Peace

You´re Canadian?
Cool! I was born in Vancouver B.C great country;)
Hope to see you some day
 
Moeller Method Exclusively (condensed version)

Hello to all...

O.K., you're absolutely right! I've read the part to avoid posting ideas, concepts, etc. that have already been posted. However, a question those concerned. Are there any other "outlets" for an instructor to pursue refining the craft of teaching while reaching a wider range of students?

"Its great to have the ability and skill that you obviously have, but there needs to be an outlet where people can see it and recognize the talent for what it is." quoted from an email response from Derrick Pope

That being said, if you could give some feed back about the following videos? (My first experiences with video...so there were technical difficulties a) using a microphone & 2) compression issues for these videos.) Please don't repeat these issues...and thank you all, in advance.

Click here...the video entitled, "Moeller Method Exclusively (condensed version)"

1) Begins with and "Opener"
2) Slower (individual) hand movements...triplets-16th notes
3) Slower (played together) hand movements

Part 2) is posted below! Demonstrates that once the "individual" hand movements have become "part of you". The part 2, below exercise is used to "transition" both hands into a cohesive "oneness" .... It's also more applicable to an actual playing situation. For those with little patience...(As opposed to exercises for exercise-sake) Enjoy & Learn....
 
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Re: Moeller Method Exclusively (condensed version)

Wow just great! You have hand technique that everyone wishes they had and perfect Moeller, you da man..
 
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