Time keepers or creative drummers

Let's face it, though: nine times out of ten you're going to get hired to keep time, not to dazzle anyone with innovative over-the-top drumming. It's fine to talk about a few famous rock bands, but how many of you are going to be in the next-big-thing band? Maybe one out of all the members of this forum. The rest are either going to have to do exactly what the gig calls for, and do it very well, or play however you want to play and work in an office.
Edit: that is not to say that there's anything at all wrong with working in an office.

This IS the bottom line.
 
... Sometimes true drumming seems like a departure from straight beats, then again we are the heartbeat of the band, too, and we can't forget we are the foundation where it all should start from. I like the way The Doors' John Denmore puts it: "I play the drums.....The drum was the first f'ing instrument. The reason people move and dance is that they're trying to get back to that heartbeat. It's the heartbeat you hear in the womb that started the whole deal. An orchestra, a four-piece rock band, whatever it is, they're trying to get back to that heartbeat." I think those are some of the wisest words to ever justify playing the drums. ...

In rock music, it's the rhythm section that moves the audience while the frontmen and other musicians entertain them.

That's the way I see it.

$0.02
 
I believe the first thing that you must do-- and I mean MUST do-- if you're going to judge whether you like a song or not is to separate the "technical" aspect of what is being played. What I mean is that I don't believe you should judge a piece of music by the means used to create that music. Whether the drummer was playing things that are not very difficult for him or her to play or the drummer is playing things that are difficult. Whether there is a human being playing the drums or there is a drum machine playing programmed drums doesn't matter to me.

That being said, I believe that there are reasons why things are the way they are. If you hear a lot of "simple" drumming on the radio it's probably because people like to hear music that sounds like that. The number one criterion as to whether you should listen to a piece of music is that you enjoy listening to it, right? Are you saying that you would like to hear more songs with "Kieth Moon drumming" because it's more fun to play in that style or because you really do enjoy hearing playing like that? It is more important than anything else that it sounds good to you. I don't have any problem with that style of drumming. I think it sounds great when it is called for in music. I'm not putting you down because I believe that you really do want to hear that style of drumming in music because you think it sounds good. Like larryace said, you should go for it. Make some music with the drums that you think make the music sound good.

So to answer your signature... "why follow the crowd?" Because I agree with the crowd. I like the way a hi-hat sounds in music. So it's conventional... does that matter? Hi-hats are groovy.

I really have enjoying thinking about this, though. I totally relate to your sentiment. There's a drummer whose name is Kris Myers who plays with a band called Umphrey's McGee. The first time I head Kris, I enjoyed his playing so much because I think he comes up with some of the most creative things on the drums, and sometimes you don't hear that type of playing in lots of music. He doesn't necessarily play "solos with the music" but his playing was almost a realization for me that made me realize how great drumming can sound.
 
Not universally. I think that's because the producer and band leaders dictate how the drummer should sound. That's just our lot in life as drummers. Most people like the concept of a drummer more than the reality of a drummer.

Exactly. This is why we have The Beatles, whose predominance has always revolved around vocals and vocal harmonies, as well as bands like Rush, whose main focus was on intricate, syncopated rythms. In the former, the rythm section took the background as it should have. Even Paul did little more than pluck single note chord parallels. In the latter, the drummer and bass player were more in the forefront than anybody else. It all depends on the band and their style of playing.
 
It all depends on the band and their style of playing.

makes sense to me , after all from all this discussion.
However.. I dont know why there are any Keith Moon type drummers now, who doesnt somewhat follow the crowd (besides me, even though I am just entry level :))
 
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This discussion has relevance to a song I'm currently working on, "Lover You Should Have Come Over" by Jeff Buckley. It's one of the more difficult songs I've played because it has a very sparse 6/8 feel. The first minute or so is nothing but kick, side-stick, and hi-hat played with the foot. Getting the hats and the side-stick to line up while playing that slowly is no easy task. Later on in the song, drummer Matt Johnson amps it up with offbeat fills and tricky syncopations. Why? becuase it's what the song called for. He's not just a pocket player and he's not just a chops monster. It's that kind of versatility that's hard to come by in musicians, but when you find it in others or yourself, it can be the most inspiring thing in the world.
 
I will definitely listen to that song by Jeff Buckley. Thanks friend.
 
I gotta weigh in... lol.

I support your ideas of taking drums in a new direction, and making them do what your hearing in your head. That's what happens in music, people get tired of the "Norm" and take things in different directions, outside the box. More power to you, and keep us informed on what your doing, and we'd love to hear sound bytes of your ideas.

On the other hand, Guys Like Charlie watts, Ringo, Phil, etc. At the time they were making hits (And still do) Were playing a new genre of music at the time, and what they were playing is what the music and or the bands were calling for. I don't think Keith would have been appropriate for the Stones any more then Charlie would have been for the Who. Etc.

When I was 18 or 19 I had different ideals about music then I do today. I was listening to recordings, and video of me with a couple bands way back then and I am a completely different player today, As I shouyld be with 25 years experience..lol. Back then I was big on over the top fills, double bass and Rolls. I still utilize everything but in different ways and when I play covers of some of the songs you mentioned, I often give it my own feel, or added expression but try to maintain the integrity of the song.

When I started writing my own music and songs I had every intention of making it a bombastic killer drum album........ But as the songs took life I realised that I wanted the melody to support the lyrics, and then I wanted the drums to frame the songs, then I wanted an over the top rhythmic guitar feel over the drum feel, and so on. And I did write a couple solo drum compositions that more expressed the creative drummer in me but all in all, as my songs took life I was more concerned with everything supporting and uplifting everything else.

That I feel is partly, or largely why a lot of bands have "Boring" drum patterns, or rhythms as the artist becomes a part of the big picture, and where do they want the emphasis placed, etc.

So I applaud your creative ideas, just don't dis the rest of us for being simple at times.
 
I know I am in a Keith Moon rut who thinks all songs should be played that way which is stupid. Please do understand I am just an entry level guy and I do have high respect to all of the folks here, never want to offend any. I was just thinking differently. The reason I said simple beats is it seems simple to me, thats why but I do understand there are more than that, and I realize more now from all of your posts.

for time being I am just a basement drummer who got blown away by seeing the Who videos and is thinking differently, again by not offending anyone)
Thanks again .
 
makes sense to me , after all from all this discussion.
However.. I dont know why there are any Keith Moon type drummers now, who doesnt somewhat follow the crowd (besides me, even though I am just entry level :))

If you mean 'why aren't there Keith Moon style drummers', well, there aren't any Keith Moon style bands around. Keith Moon and the Who are part and parcel, you couldn't have one without the other. In terms of the art of drumming, the discipline of the instrument, Moon doesn't rank highly - he was technically lacking, prone to sloppiness and lacked versatility. Frankly, he makes for a bad role model to aspiring drummers. Put him with the Who and he cooks.
 
When I was younger, I often felt the same as you. I was listening to Billy Cobham and Mahavishnu Orchestra, Carl Palmer with ELP, Bruford with King Crimson, and I thought "Why would anyone settle for a 2 and 4?".
But then I heard Bruford do exactly that. He played an entire song doing nothing but hitting the 2 and 4. As I listened I thought,,perfection! He could have done anything, all his chops are there, but he chose not to use them. He played the SONG perfectly.
Then I made my living playing drums. It is different where just playing simple beats for the dance crowd puts gas in the car, pays the rent, and feeds the family
I'm lucky now, all I do is clinics and solo concerts. I can do whatever I want and I've developed something unheard of in drumming, actually playing songs on a tuned drum set! It is a real challenge, and even though it may not be blazing fast, the difficulty is there.
Set your own style, don't be afraid of creativity, but also recognise the time and place for it.
 
time keeping is important but lately ive been listening to a lot of gorgoroth and cannibal corpe and think that even thoght the have NOOOOOOO rhythm it is still epic and orgazimisticy amazing
 
Thanks Jimtyler.
Yes, I do recognize the beauty of simple beats.
Honestly I look up on all of you folks here who really play in gigs.
I know I need to learn a lot from here.... again following what my heart wants me to do by developing my own style .
thanks again.
 
The Keith Moon, I think it's impressive how you've opened your mind quite a bit in this thread alone.

How long have you been playing drums and how old are you?
 
Great discussion on this thread. I think that you need to account for musical depth, when talking about simple patterns. I quote Steve Jordan, "Simplicity is not stupidity." A simple pattern, like an eighth note groove, can sound overwhelming powerful in the hands of a master like Porcaro, Gadd, Purdie, Bonham, etc. Why? Because those guys have a depth to their playing. It's not just solid time-keeping, it's the personal sound, feel, and tone that they pull out of the groove. And conversely, a chops-blazing fill can sound powerful, and can elevate a band if it is musical, and if it is rooted in the authenticity of the players voice, like Buddy, for example.

There is also the whole concept of 'rightness.' I'll do my best to explain by giving an analogy in the world of composers - Beethoven. Leonard Bernstein, in one of his books, The Joy of Music, set out in a humorous dialogue to find out why Beethoven is regarded the best composer in classical music. He and his friends first analyze all the technical aspects of his music - rhythm. It turns out that he was pretty good at rhythm, but never really invented anything gound-breaking in that dept., and his music was certainly not as rhythmically interesting as later composers. OK, so how about melody - he could write a decent melody, but most of his pieces, frankly, do not have much melody, nothing as masterful as the melodies of say Tchaikovsky, or Gershwin, or Paul McCartney. They contain melodic fragments, but very few show-stoppers. What about harmony? - some innovation, but not much, definitely not as much the next generation of composers, like Berlioz, Wagner, and Debussy. Orchestration - totally conventional, and became more and more problematic as he became more and more deaf. OK then, if it's not rhythm, melody, harmony, or orchestration, what makes him the best? Answer - rightness! Every piece that he wrote seems impossible to improve upon. The succession of notes seems totally perfect. The 2nd note follows the 1st in just the RIGHT way. And that is the most important question the composer can ask - What is the next note? Not the most complicated, or the prettiest note, or the hippest note, or the most creative note - what is the RIGHT note? And he possessed that gift to a higher degree than any other composer, and leaves all the rest in the dust.

As drummers we compose our own drum part, and so we are ourselves asking 'what should the next note be", and our experience gives us our answer. Some people just have it. You hear their playing and think, "that was the perfect fill, or groove, or feel, for the moment." Whether it is simple or not, doesn't determine the rightness. Music is a product of the musician and the listener. That magic X factor.
 
I watched Vinnie play A Day In The Life with Jeff Beck. Didn't like it at all...far too much.

Give me the sound of Ringo on "Hello Goodbye" any day and ..I Am The Walrus..... just beautiful.
 
The Keith Moon, I think it's impressive how you've opened your mind quite a bit in this thread alone.

How long have you been playing drums and how old are you?

thanks , well... I am in my forties, I know u folks might have thought like me long time ago and got over this frustrtation. I have been playing drums only for the last 3
years! just because i could afford to buy one only3 years ago. I am playing drums just for my enjoyment, honestly.


When I listen to some blues songs, some rolls just plays in my head , which is not really there, for eg: Stevie Ray Vaugahn (Chris Layton)
 
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