Double pedals = 1/2 the drummer?

This is a very entertaining thread. For myself, I never had the thought in my head to even consider one. In my own playing, I am constantly trying to reduce the number of notes I naturally want to play as it is. So a double pedal for me would be like needing to be on a diet and eating chocolate cake instead. It's all about what musical world you live in.

It's just another voice to be used. In my world it would be an unwelcome voice. I don't want to hear that much bass drum, and I know for sure that every guitarist I ever knew would definitely roll their eyes. Too much of a good thing is not a good thing in my book. But hey I'm 51 and the double pedal was not a part of the music I grew up with.

The beautiful thing about music is....there's room for everyone and everything. Whatever soothes your soul, floats your boat, trips your trap, or oils your gears is available, and if it's not, then you can create it.

As for the thread title, I disagree wholeheartedly.
 
The majority of drumset vocabulary consists of patterns played on different parts of the kit. The majority of double bass drum vocabulary consists of linear patterns played on a single drum or a pair of identical sounding drums. The role of the double bass feet is utterly incomparable to the role of the hands.

Not always the same sound, some drummers use different sized kick drums to achieve different sounds, eg. so that a paradiddle actually has significance because it is not play on the one drum...

...BTW, has anyone try double hi-hat? I imagine all the constant tick-ticking would annoy your average virtuoso metal guitar player more than machine gun fast double-bass rata-flama-da-diddles...

...anyhow, I see it as another part of drumming, if your better at it you can play more music and express yourself better...

I listen to a lot of Virgil Donati, and I'm currently working on his Double Bass Freedom book, so I guess it has had its effect in me. ;)

...but don't get to distracted into it, otherwise your drumming gets very technical and boring...

...most musicians don't care about phrasing 13/16 over a 3/4 hemiola, they would prefer to think about how well your drumming complements the music as a whole.
 
I do not favor or disfavor double pedal. I think it is another tool to use.

My mate who has two rehearsals and two big gigs this week broke his right foot last Sunday. He is playing using his left foot on his double pedal.

It seems quite valuable to me.
 
Seems like a good place for an analogy.

This point has been made before, but here goes:

In fencing, there are three forms of sword- foile, sabre, and epée. Foile and epée rely on their tips to score points and sabre can use either the tip or the edge. the latter two have similar grip, the sword almost parallel with the ground, and sabre is held like a conventional sword.

The technique used with foile and epée is commonly called "point-control"(herf derf). Sabre doesn't commonly use the tip to strike, and 90% of the strikes are chopping motions. It is not advised to fence sabre all the time, as you will lose your point-control either partially or in some cases debilitatingly.

Effectively, this has happened to me with double pedal. I've become used to power kicks instead of just kicks. I used to be a heel-down player and now I'm a heel-up player. My environment calls for double-bass, but I've been considering moving to single-pedal for a bit to regain the skills.

So, double-pedal is useful in the extreme. There is always justification for it. But it's important not to lose your single-pedal skills with the change.
 
...but don't get to distracted into it, otherwise your drumming gets very technical and boring...

...most musicians don't care about phrasing 13/16 over a 3/4 hemiola, they would prefer to think about how well your drumming complements the music as a whole.

Yes, of course. I don't plan on doing these things with a band or anything. I'm also working out of Gary Chaffee's Time Functioning Patterns. This is all to work on independence and to further my technical abilities. I'm not in a band at the moment and I really just enjoy challenging myself with these types of things. :)
 
I think double kick is a bit like Rachmaninoff is for pianists. It sometimes sounds horrendous but it's a hell of a lot of fun to play. There's nothing else that quite compares to the feeling of playing a 16th pattern at speed with your feet, there's an athletic aspect you don't get with any other part of the kit. Perhaps that's why people tend to want to learn it despite its relative lack of usefulness in most music.
 
This is a bit off KISS' initial interrogation but most of what I read here seems to be about using double pedal to play more or less intricate patterns to spice things up (be it a fill, a solo etc.) or to compliment music that demands it (mostly metal affiliated styles of music)...

But what do you all think about the ambidextrous approach - not necessarily using double pedal the way we've been talking about (not excluding it though) but using it to play in a more conventional manner playing left-handed just as right-handed on the kit?
 
But what do you all think about the ambidextrous approach - not necessarily using double pedal the way we've been talking about (not excluding it though) but using it to play in a more conventional manner playing left-handed just as right-handed on the kit?

I think it's a useless skill to strive for. If you think of it, you're doing double (or more) the work to gain zero amount of new drumming vocabulary.
 
But what do you all think about the ambidextrous approach - not necessarily using double pedal the way we've been talking about (not excluding it though) but using it to play in a more conventional manner playing left-handed just as right-handed on the kit?
I think it's a worthy endeavor. I've been trying to get more seamless with my open-handed drumming and one of the unexpected benefits was how it changed the way I played time. It forced me out of some old lazy habits.

Similarly, I've tried playing left kick before as primary and it also changed my feel. My right foot has some lazy habits that became apparent when I tried to play just left kick.
 
I think it's a useless skill to strive for. If you think of it, you're doing double (or more) the work to gain zero amount of new drumming vocabulary.

Why should it be about (new) vocabulary? For instance, aren't most of us spending hours training our weaker hand so it can be on par with our dominant hand?

I believe that for us to more or less master/integrate something, practicing in itself is not enough - you need to apply it. I have the impression that - although both side will never be perfectly equal - actually using our weaker side would reduce the distance to catch up with the dominant side, since we would be putting it into application in context and not just practicing.

I know I'm speaking of hands further up and like we have said it's not exactly the same thing with the feet, but they more or less go together since playing left-handed (if you are right handed) implies leading with both weaker hand and weaker foot at one point or another.
 
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Wave must be in a bad mood this doesn't sound like him.

I think using a double pedal to train your weak side would take your mind to places it might not have gone otherwise, and that's bound to inspire something I would think. Plus, I would imagine that it would be good practice to smooth out what vocabulary you do have, playing open handed and weak foot on the bass drum. I don't have a double pedal but I can see the possibilities of it putting more pressure on the weak side to strengthen it.
 
...BTW, has anyone try double hi-hat? I imagine all the constant tick-ticking would annoy your average virtuoso metal guitar player more than machine gun fast double-bass rata-flama-da-diddles...
I use as many a 6 pedals at times. 2 kicks, 2 hats (one 14",& 13"), low & high cowbells on the outside. Its like anything, you can be creative & tasteful with it, or over use it & kill it. I try to go for the creative & use them as needed.

I started using them whem I realized that a lot of classic rock songs have overdubbed cowbell while the drummer was keeping a money beat on the kit. So I added a Pearl Eleminator with a gajate to mount the cowbell & loved it.
You can do quarters on the cowbell, or a clave, while playing eights on the hats/ride to keep a solid groove. I use a 16th note Samba pattern split between the bd & hats on a Latin tune my band does (ala George Kollias). Soling with the hands over a pedal ostinato is another cool use.

I think this is an area of drumming that still has a lot of potential to explore. There are some guys using this stuff already but it could possibly be a cool new area to most drummers.
 
The majority of drumset vocabulary consists of patterns played on different parts of the kit. The majority of double bass drum vocabulary consists of linear patterns played on a single drum or a pair of identical sounding drums. The role of the double bass feet is utterly incomparable to the role of the hands.

so .. anything requiring 2 hands on a snare drum makes you half the drummer? ... a lot of drummers play a large part of a fill on a snare and nothing else (a good portion of buddy rich's solos is pretty much all snare with a few tom and cymbal hits here and there) ..
I know most people don't like extreme metal .. but can you really imagine it any other way that having blazing double bass?
would it sound better if george kollias played a really fast samba to nile songs?
maybe dave lombardo could play some up tempo be-bop rhythms on the next slayer album.
cannibal corpse mambo? or maybe a good half-time triplet shuffle to a deicide song. all of that makes as much sense as playing an endless flurry of double bass to the latest country song.

i think the bigger problem is not the use of double bass in general .. but the people who practice nothing BUT double bass .. can only play 1 style .. extreme metal .. that's all.

I keep trying to increase my bass drum speed .. metal is my 1st love ... but I can also play an afro cuban beat with the clave on my left foot. it's about rounding yourself out as a musician.
 
I know most people don't like extreme metal .. but can you really imagine it any other way that having blazing double bass?

Sure. There's more than one way to skin a cat and there's always a bunch of options to deal with any musical situation. If the only tool you have is a hammer then everything is going to look like a nail. The use of double kicks in metal is relatively new. For a long time metal was played with a more standard kit.

There's no law that says drummers must always go for the cliché. I sometimes wonder why so many modern metal drummers don't mix it up a bit - maybe play eighths against the guitarist's 16ths or play the 16ths on other parts of the kit and save the double kicks for the more climactic sections. After all, if everything is a climax then nothing is.

My gut feeling is that nu metal is in its very early days, maybe like jazz was back when swing drummers played a lot of backbeat. In time players started mixing things up until syncopated broken rhythms became more common than not.

I guess the clichés are popular with punters and that'll get you gigs, but I'm pretty sure that metal drummers are going to start stretching boundaries until the current overuse of machine gun kicks and lack of dynamics is considered to be old hat.
 
Why should it be about (new) vocabulary? For instance, aren't most of us spending hours training our weaker hand so it can be on par with our dominant hand?

Drumming should be about music, and music studies should be focused on the study of style -- learning the specific sounds found in specific genres and also identifying the common ground and the differences between different styles. Technical studies are a very important (if not vital) part of the learning process, since you can't make a sound without technique, but working on ambidexterity for the sake of ambidexterity is just time put to waste. Each limb has its own role and purpose, and this applies to all instruments, not just drums. This is not to say that working hard on your weak hand is useless; it's very, very imporant. But equal technical facility isn't ambidexterity. Ambidexterity refers to both sides being able to do everything just as well as the other side. Are there any musical applications for true ambidexterity?

Don't get me wrong. Open handed playing is great, and it's great to have an elaborate kit spanning 360 degrees with many pedals for both feet. Often it's necessary to lead with the weak hand and juggle several pedals, but even that necessity should be stated by the music you want to play. If you need to be able to improvise on the toms while playing an intricate hi-hat ostinato coupled with two bass drum sounds, then you need to put in the hours to gain the facility and freedom with that concept... but that still isn't ambidexterity! Louis Bellson was ambidextrous by nature, but even he didn't play ambidextrously: he opted to develop individual roles for his hands and feet, because the music called for it. It's easier to learn to play certain things the certain way, and if it's easier to learn, it's going to develop faster to sound better and feel better.

Wave must be in a bad mood this doesn't sound like him.

I'm not in a bad mood, I'm in an opinion rich and discussive mood!

so .. anything requiring 2 hands on a snare drum makes you half the drummer? ... a lot of drummers play a large part of a fill on a snare and nothing else (a good portion of buddy rich's solos is pretty much all snare with a few tom and cymbal hits here and there) ..

I've never said that using a double pedal makes you half a drummer -- I said that the double kick sound has fairly limited uses. Rolls on the snare, the toms and the cymbal on the other hand have several uses in all musical genres.

would it sound better if george kollias played a really fast samba to nile songs?
maybe dave lombardo could play some up tempo be-bop rhythms on the next slayer album.
cannibal corpse mambo? or maybe a good half-time triplet shuffle to a deicide song. all of that makes as much sense as playing an endless flurry of double bass to the latest country song.

I agree with you; the double kick roll is an essential part of metal music. When metal players play metal, they are just as stylistically informed as any other musicians of other styles.
 
My gut feeling is that nu metal is in its very early days, maybe like jazz was back when swing drummers played a lot of backbeat. In time players started mixing things up until syncopated broken rhythms became more common than not.

Nu-metal, f-ck yeah!

I don't know if anybody saw it, but there was a thread about beats people made up that I started, and one of the beats I posted used double-bass, but only for the sake of being dynamically even.

If someone uses double bass like that, does that exempt them from the dugga-dugga-dugga-dugga stereotype?
 
I'm wondering if all these kind of arguments are only happening because of two kinds of people participate on this forum:

1. those who are professional session drummers or are practicing to be one, gigging in variety of situations and therefore (over)value the ability to survive any possible situation. They see every genre as only a small part of the bigger picture.

2. those who play only their own music in their one and only band, usually in a quite small subgenre.

Obviously if person from group 2 plays extreme metal he will see the use of double pedal as a very fundamental thing when a player who juggles between 20 bands spanning 10 different styles in one year can see it as a marginal thing. But are the people in the group 2 inferior to group 1 or vice versa? I don't think so. They just CAN have different needs.

I play original music in my one and only band and I still of course value ability to play wide spectrum of things, but that also includes playing heavy metal stuff with double bass in it. And to be honest, double bass rolls start to sound good only after around 220bpm 16ths and developing that with control is going to take many years. But I have listened a lot of metal in my childhood so it would be really really ignorant of my own past if I didn't at least try to incorporate those patterns I hear in my head as my own vocabulary.

That said, at least for now those better sounding tempos are out of my reach so I only play one pedal and make it really boomy. Afterall, aren't rolls for sustain?
 
The majority of drumset vocabulary consists of patterns played on different parts of the kit. The majority of double bass drum vocabulary consists of linear patterns played on a single drum or a pair of identical sounding drums. The role of the double bass feet is utterly incomparable to the role of the hands.

Just because there are a lot lame approaches to the instrument does not mean the need or use of double kick is incomparable to the use of the hands on the kit
 
I would like to also add that because I play heel down and can play without burying the beater the double pedal practice has made my left leg to be able to execute hi-hat splashes quite independetly of any other patterns I might be doing with my other limbs. You might call it also a marginal thing, but everything is if you only take one single thing. To me it's quite important vocabulary.
 
Nu-metal, f-ck yeah!

I don't know if anybody saw it, but there was a thread about beats people made up that I started, and one of the beats I posted used double-bass, but only for the sake of being dynamically even.

If someone uses double bass like that, does that exempt them from the dugga-dugga-dugga-dugga stereotype?

Hehehe, consider yourself excused :) I probably should have said "new metal" but I'm not too up with that scene.

As I said before, no drama from this end with double pedal or any other technique. I just like to hear variety, originality and dynamics. Take Meshuggah, for example. That Tomas Haake guy is brilliant ... amazing drummer ... but he and his band just give me a headache.
 
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