Double pedals = 1/2 the drummer?

Outside of Metal (necessary evil) & ex true double kick drum players, are double pedals primarily used by guys who simply have poor pedal technique? I know I'm guilty of that to some degree (although I did used to play a double kick kit). More importantly, does the prolonged use of double pedals make for really bad single kick technique? I find (like so many I suspect) double stroke on a single kick really arkward to get convincingly right every time, yet even when less than perfect, it's so much more organic. The lazy double kick pedal version is oh so mechanical by comparison. That natural ghosting is gone. Anyhow, double kick pedal, 1/2 the player?

keep it simple said:

Outside of Metal (necessary evil) & ex true double kick drum players, are double pedals primarily used by guys who simply have poor pedal technique? I know I'm guilty of that to some degree (although I did used to play a double kick kit). More importantly, does the prolonged use of double pedals make for really bad single kick technique? I find (like so many I suspect) double stroke on a single kick really arkward to get convincingly right every time, yet even when less than perfect, it's so much more organic. The lazy double kick pedal version is oh so mechanical by comparison. That natural ghosting is gone. Anyhow, double kick pedal, 1/2 the player?

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Just like anything else, it depends on the player, the dedication, and the time put into practice. Being a double bass player can actually help your single pedal technique...it wasn't until I started working paradiddles and such with my feet on a double bass that my right foot got faster...so now, I usually play a single pedal, but get a lot of double and triple strokes out of my right foot from that experience. I think it is safe to say that a lot of guys get into double pedals too early, and don't develop good technique (either with hands or with feet), but that's not the pedals fault...it's the lack of focus and dedication to learning correctly.

Hope not........after 25 odd years with a lone pedal, I splashed out and bought a double several months ago. I don't put as much time into it as I'd hoped I would, but I do practice on it fairly frequently. At this stage my (exceptionally limited) live work has been on a single though. Once I've racked up some time on the double, I'll let you know if I'm half, or one-and-a-half of what I was with a single.

for me double pedals has actually helped more then hindered, they've made me strive to get both my feet as dextrous as my hands and explore multi effects pedal ochestrations (samba and other styles). like matt said it all depends on the player and how dedicated they are

I always practice with a double pedal configuration, but I'm in a single pedal phase with my playing in a band context. I started with doubles though so I might eventually go back there but don't have any reason right now. It's not that I can't use it, I'm a fairly good at different double pedal patterns but the music I'm playing right doesn't need it.

People don't seem to open their minds to the fact that, with a double pedal, you can now play the bass drum with the left foot. No, you DON'T need to be playing rapidfire 32nd notes to put that slave pedal to good use!

Go back to some of your old, simple drum books and play the bass drum part with your left foot and watch your endependence skyrocket. I am currently striving to achieve ambidexterity by utilizing the double pedal and two hi hats, one on each side.

If you think of the pedal in ways like this, it will no longer just seem as a "short-cut" to bass drum doubles, etc.

keep it simple said:

Outside of Metal (necessary evil) & ex true double kick drum players, are double pedals primarily used by guys who simply have poor pedal technique? I know I'm guilty of that to some degree (although I did used to play a double kick kit). More importantly, does the prolonged use of double pedals make for really bad single kick technique? I find (like so many I suspect) double stroke on a single kick really arkward to get convincingly right every time, yet even when less than perfect, it's so much more organic. The lazy double kick pedal version is oh so mechanical by comparison. That natural ghosting is gone. Anyhow, double kick pedal, 1/2 the player?

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This is a loaded question, but the responses demonstrate there is value in the double pedal even for a single pedal player.

Davo

You play toms and snares with two hands. You play cymbals with two hands. Why not bass drums with two feet?

I think that for the most part the double doesn't detract from single-pedal skill unless you or your teacher let it. (Note: if you're poor at single pedal you should address that before moving on.)

But I do think that starting too soon on the double bass can inhibit skill development on the best instrument on the kit (with the possible exception of the snare drum): the hihat.

Though my kid desperately wanted one right away, I delayed getting him one for a couple of years until he had developed a good right foot and until he developed both skill with and appreciation for the hihat. It didn't hurt him a bit--his single-pedal playing is among the fastest I've ever heard (way beyond mine) and he can make music with the hats.

He dislikes the kind of music that is constant dugga-dugga-dugga on the bass drum, so instead he found ways to use it in grooves and fills in a musical way. I think that's a pretty good result.

Given that experience, I'd be reluctant to let a beginner start with double pedal unless you have a smart teacher. But no reason not to use it later on.

drumtechdad said:

You play toms and snares with two hands. You play cymbals with two hands. Why not bass drums with two feet?

I think that for the most part the double doesn't detract from single-pedal skill unless you or your teacher let it. (Note: if you're poor at single pedal you should address that before moving on.)

But I do think that starting too soon on the double bass can inhibit skill development on the best instrument on the kit (with the possible exception of the snare drum): the hihat.

Though my kid desperately wanted one right away, I delayed getting him one for a couple of years until he had developed a good right foot and until he developed both skill with and appreciation for the hihat. It didn't hurt him a bit--his single-pedal playing is among the fastest I've ever heard (way beyond mine) and he can make music with the hats.

He dislikes the kind of music that is constant dugga-dugga-dugga on the bass drum, so instead he found ways to use it in grooves and fills in a musical way. I think that's a pretty good result.

Given that experience, I'd be reluctant to let a beginner start with double pedal unless you have a smart teacher. But no reason not to use it later on.

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I think that is good advice. There is so much to learn with the hats and even foot percussion.

For some odd reason, double pedaling is the most-discussed topic in the general, technique and gear sections - yet it has the least use across genres.

"If we could play on one hand what you could with two, sticks would come one to a pair" - Tommy Aldridge....regarding those that criticize doublebass players.


Same mind applies. There is just a certain point at which figures can't be played. True there is much more depth than that in their field of independence and synchopation. A matter of basic physics, really.

Now, are there people who play on two what rightfully should be played on one? Probably...but that is purely up to the player against the opinion of the audience. If it works, who's to criticize?

Double bass drum pedals mean both kick beats will always be in the mix. When I actually used to use two bass drums back in the day, it was very rare that the engineer actually had both of them in the mix. Pros: 1 bass drum = 1 mic, smaller set up area, easier to load in & out not to mention the storage issue....... Murdock the Drummer

When I started out, this was true for me (I made sure to buy a double kick pedal with my first kit). It wasn't until years later that I realized that my single pedal technique wasn't where I wanted it to be, since I'd always relied on my double kick.

As an independence exercise, I used to set up the double pedal, with the slave nestled under the high hat stand, and a remote hat pedal next to the bass drum, so I could play the bass drum with either foot and a hi hat with either foot. When you switch back and forth like that, especially every measure, it really opens your mind up and makes you concentrate. It's like learning to play the hats with your left hand and the snare with your right if you're used to doing it the other way all your life.

I'm not very good at grooves and sustained passages with double bass. I use double bass to start an intro with tom grooves or in crashy washy sections to give some bottom. To play like many do or Thomas Lang does effortlessly in simple grooves, I cannot do.

I like to end some songs with some quad ruffs and cymbal play.

Otherwise, my double bass chops are weak.

keep it simple said:

I find (like so many I suspect) double stroke on a single kick really arkward to get convincingly right every time,

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I've spent the last year dedicating about 50% of my practice time to double strokes on single pedal and whilst it's improved massively it's only over the last 2 weeks that I've really analysed my technique which really hasn't been great and could only be described as toe - toe.
2 weeks ago I started really practicing the slide technique (couldn't get on with heel - toe felt really awkward) and whilst I'm not fluent in it by any means it's already made the 2 kicks individual and clean space in between them as opposed to muddied into one and my power has increased massively giving a real thud on each hit.
Now when I'm playing I've just got to remember to actually use it rather than reverting to my bad technique that's been ingrained over many many years.

I have played double-bass in the past (both with two kicks and cheater beaters) but have been single pedal for 95% of the last 20 years.

That said, I think it makes perfect sense to play the bass drum with both feet and don't see any reason to discourage anyone from running on them any more than I think one should be artificially limited to just one stick on the snare drum.

In other words, if I was a kid and wanted to play double bass (and I was), I would be pissed at anyone standing in my way on that. I think the job of a good teacher foster the creative instincts and facilitate the young drummer's vision - not to steer him or her towards yours. I've never seen anything to make me believe that starting a youngster on double pedals will damage their development. Not allowing them to go where their hearts are leading them may cause discouragement and apathy. Which is worse? It's almost like saying, "You don't get to practice rock until you've mastered jazz."

To my mind, it would be a lot easier to transition to hi-hat playing after having exercised the left foot/leg on a kick pedal than it would the other way around. I know how hard it is to get the left leg working a kick pedal after the relatively easy task of working the hats (big muscles vs small muscles).

I've had a cheater beater that I inherited 5 ago years or so. Only reason I've not used it is because it needs a couple parts and I've been too lazy to get it fixed (that, and I just favor a single). Perhaps it's time to revisit that thing.

EDIT: I was at a Benny Greb clinic recently where he talked about his formative years and first lessons by an old cantankerous chain-smoking guy who told him that his first two years of lessons would be snare drum only. Benny studied with him reluctantly until he went away to study full time. BG said that even at that young age, he realized that he had an established relationship with the drums prior to lessons that was his and came to the conclusion (perhaps after finding some good teachers) that the best teachers were the ones that respected that relationship and didn't try to interfere with whatever it was that compelled the student to play the instrument to begin with.

I couldn't agree more.

For me it was the other way around.

As a teenager, I didn't have great single technique, and terrible left-foot-hi-hat technique.

But then I saw the debut of "One" by Metallica on MTV, and I wanted my feet to do that.
Lot's of practice later, not only could I do that, but my single pedal and hi-hat techniques were vastly improved too, because I had developed those muscles.

On the flip side, I have a lot of ankle damage in my right foot from various injuries. While I can still play, there is too much ligament damage to ever play Bonham licks cleanly. It's just never going to happen.

The other aspect is, some things I can play on a single or on a double, but the same figure has a different feel depending on which way I play it. So the vibe of the song might determine which approach to use.

hhm. interesting.

i love my double bass, i dont go blasing 32s through a passage i like it just for flams and grooves under the rest and like phillipe said under cymbals and tom patterns. i feel it adds something to it. i also dislike it when people try to discourage double bass for the last few months since my guitarist has decided that he wants to learn drums and get his own kit he seems to repeatedly try and put his ideal kit onto me ie 24" ride remove china and sell my dw 9002 for a single. irritating.

i dont feel it makes you less of a drummer unless your doing blast metal just because its not really music its noise. its just makes you an individual not conforming to other peoples beliefs weather its the majority or the minority

This one is close to home, Andy. I'm always set up with a double pedal but I hardly play it. A sense of misguided insecurity perhaps.

Funny thing about my playing.. I'd use the double pedal, only for a few fills here and there.. fast triplets quads etc.and at the same time I was forcing myself to learn to do all that stuff off a single pedal. Which I eventually did. So now my foot almost never moves off the hihat pedal.

I've always had a bug bear about getting my feet to explore all the possibilities to its fullest and for me to push my capabilities...... BUT ....of the traditional drum set. Therefore I have this strange relationship with the second pedal.It is an auslander, a step son ( no pun intended! : )
.... and I completely agree with you on the ghosted notes sounding nicer when played single. Of course this has to a lot to do with the kind of music I play.

...

The biggest issue with the double bass drums is that the general drumming vocabulary doesn't contain too many phrases which truly employ the double kick sound or couldn't be realised by using a single pedal -- and the phrases in question are extremely specific to the metal sub genres. It seems to me that you'd need to develop a very large body of motor skills to be able to play phrases with very limited applications, and that's why I've never been inclined to take up the double kick pedal. Not enough bang for the buck!

Unless you know you want to play metal with authority, there's no reason why you couldn't or shouldn't train your left foot's technique and coordination by playing the hi-hat. The hi-hat sound has many more uses in all sorts of musical situations, and if develops the foot's role as an independent limb capable of playing various rhythms against and with the other limbs as opposed to the role of "the other half of my bass drum technique".

Wavelength said:

The biggest issue with the double bass drums is that the general drumming vocabulary doesn't contain too many phrases which truly employ the double kick sound or couldn't be realised by using a single pedal -- and the phrases in question are extremely specific to the metal sub genres. It seems to me that you'd need to develop a very large body of motor skills to be able to play phrases with very limited applications, and that's why I've never been inclined to take up the double kick pedal. Not enough bang for the buck!

Unless you know you want to play metal with authority, there's no reason why you couldn't or shouldn't train your left foot's technique and coordination by playing the hi-hat. The hi-hat sound has many more uses in all sorts of musical situations, and if develops the foot's role as an independent limb capable of playing various rhythms against and with the other limbs as opposed to the role of "the other half of my bass drum technique".

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I don't understand how this myth that double mass = metal is in so many people's heads.

Tell that to Louie Bellson, Steve Smith, Billy Cobham, Ginger Baker and many others that use/used double bass in non-metal settings.

Duke Ellington wasn't metal.