Are you a Groove Player or a Technical Player?

OK Larry and Henri - you guys are using too many words. This denotes you two being too technical and not groove oriented. Let it go.
..................................................​
 

Attachments

  • Jeez Mo....jpg
    Jeez Mo....jpg
    36.2 KB · Views: 994
No... thread not over... Uncle Larry...

Do you remember your own words in one of my thread?

You said: "There's a way to play simply that makes it sound great. It requires nuance and experience. I think a lot of guys play lots of notes because if there is a place where it would fit, why not? I can think of many reasons why not. You can play a simple beat, in a complex way, with dynamics, inner kit individual volume relation knowledge/control, barely audible ghosts, and much more, but most of all it has to have feel. A sense of just the right touch to put on a song is something that can be learned. I'm proof, I wasn't born with it.
A distilled drum part that feels right beats a more verbiose drum part that doesn't put feeling as Job 1 wins every time for me
."

So in other words, the red highlights of your quote imply a sound knowledge of the instrument, not just feel and playing a simple pattern, to get a groove going like you've explain in your quote requires a sound technical knowledge or skill, to pull out ghost notes efficiently alongside dynamics with a killer groove that has feel and emotion is one of the hardest thing to do, much harder than throwing fills left right and center.

Furthermore, a "groove" can be intricate and complex to play, sometimes more difficult than what's called "technical drumming".

So ideally you'll need both, groove AND technique, it's not a "either or" type of question IMO, one can hardly exist without the other, is what you chose to do with the skills you have that count.

9 times out of 10, I find that the music tells me what should I play (originals, not covers), I think I groove, but I'm also busy enough on the kit, much depends on the style too, some music definitely needs a simple pattern, some others a little more spice and sometimes overplaying just fit the bill, it's all drumming to me, you play what you feel fits the music.

I think I also know what Mary is asking in a more simple way, am I more a Steve Jordan or a Thomas Lang type of player, my guess is I'm more a Steve type of drummer if that makes sense.

What he said. I think that's the way a lot of us feel, but that's one of the best examples of explaining it I can remember reading. All I would add is that although the ultimate goal is to have both groove and technique, if I had to listen to someone who only had one or the other I'd rather hear the groove. That's subjective though. Songs that are focused on technique without a good groove get boring after awhile, but I listened to 2112 way too many times when I was 17 to pretend I don't like flashy drum parts. Of course, that album has some cool grooves, too.......
 
Last edited:
I've been listening to a lot of Zigaboo lately. I am comfortable grooving in a few styles (limited fills overall), but this funk stuff has my right foot and my overall coordination really working to keep up. In this way, I am having to master a technique, in order to lay down a groove (a super-groove; I mean, it's Zig, who's groovier than that?)...so it's both all the way.

But, I don't think that's what the question is really about. My answer would be that I seek the pocket. I love (LOVE) the groove. Brazen technical prowess does not interest me necessarily, but I am finding myself concentrating on the technical in order to really make a certain beat really groove.

Bonzo really knew how to serve the space in a song...how would he be classified?

Note: I am NOT comparing myself to The Man, just curious.
 
Two of my favorite thoughts on this subject:

"It's much easier for a groove drummer to learn chops than for a chops guy to learn to groove."

"If you don't love laying down a simple groove, you really don't love the drums"

I love technique and I'm a drum geek to the nth degree but over the years I've learned that everything exists to serve the song. Usually the song is asking you for a groove and not a septuplet fill phrased as 4's across 3 toms.
 
Good relaxed technique grooves and many drummers have prooved that. Steve Gadd, Jeff Porcaro, Vinnie, Jojo Mayer, his technique is flawless and his time feel is sick, as is Vinnies.

I think some of you guys may be cofusing technique with chops, chops are chops, speed is speed. Technique is about how you body works and approach. To groove you need some. I can't think of drummer who does'nt have some. Maybe a few weekend giging guys on drummerworld, but not record cutting groove, not groove you could atchually cut to record and sell to the masses.

You are not wasting your time practising rudiments, as long you use a metromone and develop your innerclock whilst doing it. Rudiments develop all the technique you need to groove, and again focus on sound not speed. Make you parrddiles and flam taps groove and your singles silky smooth and you will have silky hats and tastey ghost notes trust, as well as tastey diddles and a nice singles for the fills you may wish to play one day.
 
more groove than technical i would say.
but i really like the challenge of more technical playing.

ideally for me a great drummer has both and that's what i try to do.
don't always succeed by i try.
 
Good relaxed technique grooves and many drummers have prooved that. Steve Gadd, Jeff Porcaro, Vinnie, Jojo Mayer, his technique is flawless and his time feel is sick, as is Vinnies.

I think some of you guys may be cofusing technique with chops, chops are chops, speed is speed. Technique is about how you body works and approach. To groove you need some. I can't think of drummer who does'nt have some. Maybe a few weekend giging guys on drummerworld, but not record cutting groove, not groove you could atchually cut to record and sell to the masses.

You are not wasting your time practising rudiments, as long you use a metromone and develop your innerclock whilst doing it. Rudiments develop all the technique you need to groove, and again focus on sound not speed. Make you parrddiles and flam taps groove and your singles silky smooth and you will have silky hats and tastey ghost notes trust, as well as tastey diddles and a nice singles for the fills you may wish to play one day.

I really like the way you describe the benefits of using rudiments in that last paragraph. Those are practical, real world applications, especially for someone who wants to play like the guys you mention in the first paragraph.
 
Being nerdy I'd describe my playing as "basic technical" ... I aim to play simply, smoothly, neatly and clearly and to arrange the drum parts with mathematical logic.

What people call "groove" - heavily syncopated funk drumming a la Gadd, Purdie, Garibaldi, Moore, Dave etc is intensely technical (and scary to me). They have consistently precise subdivisions and amazing control over internal dynamics.

The top groovers are actually more technical than, say, Carl Palmer with ELP who was more loose and emotional, shooting for excitement, tonal variety and bombastic entertainment.
 
Definitely more groove than flash. I appreciate and understand and am usually impressed with some of the fireworks and extreme playing, as a youngster, I always thought it would be great to play for Zappa. But as life progressed, the technical stuff is not what I listen to, and not what I play. In fact, I don't recall ever being offered a gig for anything particularly funky, fusiony, or jazzy. I'm not being mercernary, it just happens to work that way for me, and perhaps explains why I'm very happy in that role. No coulda-shoulda-woulda here.

That's not to say I only play 2 & 4 for a living. I have more than a few tricks in my bag, and can swing pretty good for a 'rock' drummer. It's just that the vast majority of work I do requires the drums to lay down the groove.

The technical players do get more attention and notoriety from the general drumming population, although it should be noted that the professional community tends to really respect the groovemeisters.

Bermuda
 
I can attest for Bermudas bag of tricks. In the Recent Weird Al show I went to Bermuda laid down two quite impressive solos. The first I think was five notes long, the second I think was three. Proving that even during a solo it's what you don't play that counts.
 
I'm naturally a groove player and will always be as it's more fun and based on 'feel' rather than 'thinking' about your drumming. However, since I've been to drum college I can see that technical aspects of drumming make your natural feel 'sound' better and cleaner.

I guess I'm just learning all the time, but like to stick with my roots as a groove drummer.

TJ @ www.britchops.co.uk
 
What people call "groove" - heavily syncopated funk drumming a la Gadd, Purdie, Garibaldi, Moore, Dave etc is intensely technical (and scary to me). They have consistently precise subdivisions and amazing control over internal dynamics.

Groove to me can be heavily syncopated but I don't normally think of groove as technical and syncopated, I think of groove as simple with impeccable feel for the quarter note. Simple in concept, that can include technical nuance-ey things like ghost notes to make it move along nicely, but not syncopated and technical sounding.

In other words, it doesn't have to be scary. It can be very simplistic.

To cite an example.....MJ's "Billie Jean" most definitely grooves, has pocket, is not technical, or syncopated. It's just simple and relentless with impeccable feel for the quarter note.

Groove definitely does not need to be syncopated. A simple groove like "Billie Jean"....I don't define that as technical in any way. Quite the opposite, it's about as simple as it gets.

I just would hate to go through life thinking groove scares me.
 
I just would hate to go through life thinking groove scares me.

It's difficult, Larry. I try to take it one day at a time. How does one keep at bay intrusive thoughts of precise 16th note subdivisions, 4-limb coordinated independence and deep control of internal dynamics?

Then there are the nightmares ... I'm in a labour camp and David Garibaldi is forcing me to tap quarter notes at 40bpm until I can bury the click ... I wake up screaming "The flams ... the flams!"
 
Definitely more groove than flash. I appreciate and understand and am usually impressed with some of the fireworks and extreme playing, as a youngster, I always thought it would be great to play for Zappa. But as life progressed, the technical stuff is not what I listen to, and not what I play. In fact, I don't recall ever being offered a gig for anything particularly funky, fusiony, or jazzy. I'm not being mercernary, it just happens to work that way for me, and perhaps explains why I'm very happy in that role. No coulda-shoulda-woulda here.

That's not to say I only play 2 & 4 for a living. I have more than a few tricks in my bag, and can swing pretty good for a 'rock' drummer. It's just that the vast majority of work I do requires the drums to lay down the groove.

The technical players do get more attention and notoriety from the general drumming population, although it should be noted that the professional community tends to really respect the groovemeisters.

Bermuda


This is pretty much my story, though in a slightly lower league than the one you play in and for me it was jazz and not Zappa. I still work on "dense phrasings" as one might say, but I've noted over the years that the thing that I got hired for was time and versatility. I grew up listening to and loving jazz, and I studied that style but eventually I found myself enjoying playing backbeat music more. I've come to appreciate a perfectly crafted pop drum part as much as a blazing polyrhythmic solo.

I'm also a bit unlike some other players in that I rather enjoy a notated part and having to wrap myself around playing it pretty much as written. It forces you out of your comfort zone in many ways. I enjoy that process as much or more as improvising in a jazz setting. I know many players who find that sort of thing stifling and hate being in theatre pits. Whereas I like the anonymity and structure of showing up, playing the ink, leaving tempo, etc. to the conductor, knowing the audience enjoyed it and having them not ever even know who I am. Job done.

In the meantime, I keep myself busy with everything from big band to rockabilly and early RnR to alt/new country. The rockabilly and RnR stuff especially gives me a chance to play for audiences who come to dance and who know their feels and tempos because there are specific steps they're trying to do. My job is to keep them grooving and get the whole room swingin'. The feedback is immediate and visceral when you get it right. There isn't a lot of showing off, but that stuff requires a deceptive amount of chops to play really well. It's all about creating a feeling and intensity and there's so much more to that than just playing the right notes in the right order. In many ways, I think that well runs just as deep as the well of technique and independence. It's incredible the difference that 5 BPM or a subtle shift in the length of your swung 8ths can make to a dancing audience. If you miss the sweet spot just a little, they won't dance.

To each their own.
 
Last edited:
Groove is everything in my opinion. Technical stuff are pretty cool, but without groove, i mean GROOVE is "nothing". :)
 
Groove, groove, groove, and more groove...!

Did I forget to mention 'groove'?

Seriously though, as an ex bass player, groove is already the most important thing. To be able to groove on the drums is the ultimate goal.

Oh, and in case of any doubt, it's all about The Groove!

:)
 
Back
Top