why I wring my hands in aggrivation, but still bought . . .

mandrew

Gold Member
So, shoot me. There is a drum company that I love that makes awesome sounding drums, but I yawn at their hardware. Ho Hum . . . They have scarcely made any real change in almost 30 years, and precious few before that.

I looked at some serious competitors for an aluminum snare. Pearl has some really nice snares, nice hardware, solidly built, and it is very obvious that they are trying to innovate. There are some great design ideas.

Then I looked at Tama Starphonic aluminums. Wow! the innovation and detail that goes into these is impressive. They are a marvel of design and functionality. They are beautifully finished, and look like they could howl at the moon!

I looked at a few others also, but not boutique drums. I checked out DW, and a host of others. I came away with the idea that most mainline builders, when it comes to snares, are far more innovative than my long time favorite. I really wanted a great aluminum drum, and one came up on Ebay, so I agonized, hopped up and down, wrung my hands, and bought it. I have had several others of these and sold them. I always regretted it. I bought this one, and am fixing it up, and will never part with it! What drum was it? . . . . . . . . .

I bought another Ludwig Acrolite. Shoot me. Why did I do it? Well, to my ear, as innovative and impressive as all of those other drums were, there was just something missing. It is all about sound. There is just something about sound that a Ludwig metal snare produces, and no one else can duplicate. So I bought another.

Yup, another snare with average hardware, that doesn't have drum key heads on hardware screws, has a cheap, stamped, mediocre throw offs, only has 2 3/16 center lugs on all sizes of drums, so you can see all of that sexy tension rod thread hanging out, cheap bolt heads that tarnish, etc. Why did I do it? I tune them up with good heads and new snares, and that sound that comes out just brings a grin to my face. In the end, its only about, and all about sound. Ludwig metal snares have it!

Post script:
If Ludwig would keep the essence of the drums they produce, the spun metal shells, vintage bearing edges, beds, beautiful finishes, and add even half of the functionality innovations on the Starphonic, they would own most of the market forever. For now, I keep a supply of various wrenches and screwdrivers to work on them. But I keep buying them for that sound. Shoot me!
 
It's hard to beat a Ludwig snare!

Bermuda
 
Post script:
If Ludwig would keep the essence of the drums they produce, the spun metal shells, vintage bearing edges, beds, beautiful finishes, and add even half of the functionality innovations on the Starphonic, they would own most of the market forever. For now, I keep a supply of various wrenches and screwdrivers to work on them. But I keep buying them for that sound. Shoot me!

Congrats on the new Acrolite.

I have an Acrolite and a BB, and wouldn't trade them for the world. I think part of the reason that the Supra/Acrolite sound so good to us is that they generate the sound we want to hear. The sound on every 70's album we toked out to, the sound of the snare on the albums that were playing when we lost our virginity, the sound of the snare in my father's band.

I guess the point is that Supras may or may not sound better in general than their derivatives, but they are a closer match to what we expect a snare to sound like. You strike a supra and you hear Bonham, as if his kit is right there in front of you, because it's pretty much the exact same thing he played 50 years ago, and that's fucking awesome to me.
 
Congrats on the new Acrolite.

I have an Acrolite and a BB, and wouldn't trade them for the world. I think part of the reason that the Supra/Acrolite sound so good to us is that they generate the sound we want to hear. The sound on every 70's album we toked out to, the sound of the snare on the albums that were playing when we lost our virginity, the sound of the snare in my father's band.

I guess the point is that Supras may or may not sound better in general than their derivatives, but they are a closer match to what we expect a snare to sound like. You strike a supra and you hear Bonham, as if his kit is right there in front of you, because it's pretty much the exact same thing he played 50 years ago, and that's fucking awesome to me.

This is the exact truth...Bonham, Paice, Kirke, etc....if they had used something else, that would probably be the sound we search for

Myself:
-BlAcrolite
-Rocker
-Brass Rocker
-Black Magic
-Pearl Ian Paice Supra Clone
 
I have an Acrolite and a BB, and wouldn't trade them for the world. I think part of the reason that the Supra/Acrolite sound so good to us is that they generate the sound we want to hear. The sound on every 70's album we toked out to, the sound of the snare on the albums that were playing when we lost our virginity, the sound of the snare in my father's band.

I guess the point is that Supras may or may not sound better in general than their derivatives, but they are a closer match to what we expect a snare to sound like. You strike a supra and you hear Bonham, as if his kit is right there in front of you, because it's pretty much the exact same thing he played 50 years ago, and that's fucking awesome to me.

On a whole 'nother level, Ludwig has become more than just drums. They are Orchestra percussion also. but going back to the beginning, the "Old Man" got the sound right coming out of the gate. Ludwig was a leader in the 20's and 30's also (along with other great makers). Ludwig was big in marching snares, set drums, orchestral, and pioneering in drum music publishing. Not to mention a founding member of the NARD. The older 4"x15" black beauties are to die for! Many a young drummer started out with WF Ludwigs drum solo book.

As great as this legacy is, you can't rest on your laurels. Still, I choose to support the ongoing company because of their overall commitment to drummers through 3 generations, and that snare sound that screams "Ludwig".
 
So, shoot me. There is a drum company that I love that makes awesome sounding drums, but I yawn at their hardware. Ho Hum . . . They have scarcely made any real change in almost 30 years, and precious few before that.

I looked at some serious competitors for an aluminum snare. Pearl has some really nice snares, nice hardware, solidly built, and it is very obvious that they are trying to innovate. There are some great design ideas.

Then I looked at Tama Starphonic aluminums. Wow! the innovation and detail that goes into these is impressive. They are a marvel of design and functionality. They are beautifully finished, and look like they could howl at the moon!

I looked at a few others also, but not boutique drums. I checked out DW, and a host of others. I came away with the idea that most mainline builders, when it comes to snares, are far more innovative than my long time favorite. I really wanted a great aluminum drum, and one came up on Ebay, so I agonized, hopped up and down, wrung my hands, and bought it. I have had several others of these and sold them. I always regretted it. I bought this one, and am fixing it up, and will never part with it! What drum was it? . . . . . . . . .

I bought another Ludwig Acrolite. Shoot me. Why did I do it? Well, to my ear, as innovative and impressive as all of those other drums were, there was just something missing. It is all about sound. There is just something about sound that a Ludwig metal snare produces, and no one else can duplicate. So I bought another.

Yup, another snare with average hardware, that doesn't have drum key heads on hardware screws, has a cheap, stamped, mediocre throw offs, only has 2 3/16 center lugs on all sizes of drums, so you can see all of that sexy tension rod thread hanging out, cheap bolt heads that tarnish, etc. Why did I do it? I tune them up with good heads and new snares, and that sound that comes out just brings a grin to my face. In the end, its only about, and all about sound. Ludwig metal snares have it!

Post script:
If Ludwig would keep the essence of the drums they produce, the spun metal shells, vintage bearing edges, beds, beautiful finishes, and add even half of the functionality innovations on the Starphonic, they would own most of the market forever. For now, I keep a supply of various wrenches and screwdrivers to work on them. But I keep buying them for that sound. Shoot me!

In other words, "junk." Either my hearing works differently than yours, tinnitus and all, or you just haven't heard a great snare drum yet.
 
OH, you have tinnitis, OK, that explains it . . . btw, thanks for the personal attack. I appreciate it. Hope you feel better soon!
 
Having owned a handful of Ludwig snares over the years, I totally get what you are saying. I loved the sound, but man they drove me crazy when it came to basic adjustments and repairs. My fine motor skills suck, so that only made it worse.

Based on what I'm reading and seeing online, Ludwig has made leaps in fit and finish on their non snare shells in recent years. I haven't bought anything new from Ludwig in the last few years so I have no experience with their newer snares.
 
Part of me doesn't understand the problems people have with the bits on the snares. I think the biggest complaint I hear (even from myself) is that the P-85 strainer starts to loosen while playing. That's probably the only thing questionable on the venerable P-85.

But when I think about it, I've been playing Acros, Supras, and Black Beauties (collectively) for over 30 years now, and I've just learned to compensate for it, and my performance doesn't suffer from it.

Is there something else about these drums that are wrong? It's become a perfect machine for me.

People keep harping on innovation, or better build.....what does it mean if Ludwig improves on their snares they'd own the market? And if you personally had a truly innovative snare, what does it matter if you can't play? Innovation means nothing if you can't say anything cool ;)
 
It's hard to beat a Ludwig snare!

Bermuda

They pay you every time you say that, don't they?

idiocracy_2006_719x312_899228.jpg

(Brought to you by Carl's Jr.)
 
People keep harping on innovation, or better build.And if you personally had a truly innovative snare, what does it matter if you can't play? Innovation means nothing if you can't say anything cool ;)
And you bought your Pearl Reference kit because it's identical to an 80's Export, & then didn't even think to mention any of it's features on a drumming forum - hmmm.

Bo, of course the gear doesn't matter if you can't play for shit. We all know that. Well done for stating the blindingly bloody obvious, but without innovation, you'd all be banging on logs, or working out how to stop your cow hide heads from detuning. Just because you work around a deficiency in a product, doesn't reduce customer's desire for a manufacturer to do better, when they know damn well they're capable of doing so.

Then there's the flip side to this - embracing the quirks as a signature character of the piece. I get that, I really do - it's why people buy an Alpha Romeo. Then we move to Mandrew's train of thought - regarding one big feature as an overriding consideration - the sound! Oh boy, do I get that big time. For me, that's no:1, 2, 3, 4, etc.

I agree with your innovation observation too, but aligned differently. Innovation without results, or yielding a result that has no use, or solving a problem that doesn't really exist, isn't worthwhile at all. Innovation for innovation's sake is a pointless marketing driven waste of time, & we see examples of that all too often.

Feel free to hate me for the day Bo - it's my birthday :)
 
And you bought your Pearl Reference kit because it's identical to an 80's Export, & then didn't even think to mention any of it's features on a drumming forum - hmmm.

Bo, of course the gear doesn't matter if you can't play for shit. We all know that. Well done for stating the blindingly bloody obvious, but without innovation, you'd all be banging on logs, or working out how to stop your cow hide heads from detuning. Just because you work around a deficiency in a product, doesn't reduce customer's desire for a manufacturer to do better, when they know damn well they're capable of doing so.

Then there's the flip side to this - embracing the quirks as a signature character of the piece. I get that, I really do - it's why people buy an Alpha Romeo. Then we move to Mandrew's train of thought - regarding one big feature as an overriding consideration - the sound! Oh boy, do I get that big time. For me, that's no:1, 2, 3, 4, etc.

I agree with your innovation observation too, but aligned differently. Innovation without results, or yielding a result that has no use, or solving a problem that doesn't really exist, isn't worthwhile at all. Innovation for innovation's sake is a pointless marketing driven waste of time, & we see examples of that all too often.

Feel free to hate me for the day Bo - it's my birthday :)


And I wished you a happy birthday too ;)

Perhaps I could've stated that a little differently and maybe more vaguely? I state the obvious because I think there's alot of people who don't get it - when I see Buddy Rich or Louie Bellson play a crap snare drum and make it sing, I see how far I have to go to match what can be done on my Supraphonics. Of course, people like that will sound incredible on more "innovative" instruments - yet they can still make logs sound really good too. I'm probably a little fatigued by people touting the innovative advantages of conceptually better instruments when all I hear from them is the whack of 2 & 4?
 
In my mind it's all relative. Do you want a metal shell sound? Get a metal shell. If you want a wood sound, buy wood. I personally like steel for the metal sound, but I don't like the corrosion that sometime occurs with it. I like maple a lot. Staved snares are really nice...

There are so many options to choose from. Ain't that wonderful? We live in glorious times. Somehow over the years and not too many trades and purchases, don't ask me how (fate perhaps?) but I ended up with 2 Yamaha snares (1 steel, 1 maple) and an old marching Gretsch. I like them all and each is a different arrow in the quiver.
 
OH, you have tinnitis, OK, that explains it . . . btw, thanks for the personal attack. I appreciate it. Hope you feel better soon!

Didn't mean to come across as an attack and I only used the term "junk" because of your own description of the build quality. We have different tastes in drum sounds and I should have respectfully pointed that out, if at all. My apologies for my stupid and rude post.
 
This goes deeper than sound in a way that I find hard to articulate....there is a brand personality to Ludwig and almost a crudity of design that is almost, well, appealing but not appealing at the same time. I have no allegiance to Ludwig and I really don't even *want* to like the brand....I love the Tama Starphonic design lines and the Mapex Black Panther design lines...but I also hate a drum that looks too technical if that makes any sense. An analogy is the marshall amp with more than one row of knobs on the front panel....my god that is ugly!

I really do own over 40 snare drums...and I don't *want* to like my Ludwig Acrolite more than my Zelcova, but I do. I don't want to like my Acrolite more than my Tama Lars or Ian Paice Pearl or Pork Pie BoB, or, ...and on and on....but, I do!!

Through a combination of design and TIMING, Ludwig managed to get a sound and a brand recognition that may be unstoppable in the snare world. The only other drum I might really try to make an effort to use would be a Bell Brass...other than that you got a Supra, BB and Acrolite and those are the timeless, unbeatable classics....I love other snare drums also; many really great ones...but I'm not going to take a DW Snakes & Arrows to a gig at a crusty old bar; the acro goes.

There are different, yes....very good yes, excellent other options, yes....but Ludwig rang the bell guys...and I don't *want* to like them. The crude design, to me, is part of the appeal along with the sound.
 
I got a black galaxy acrolite as part of a payment for some amp work I did. I am honestly not a fan, and it is really for many of the reason the OP mentioned. It definitely needs new snares. I put puresounds on most of my snares, and Im sure the Acro would benefit from a set. But those stock snares are pretty terrible. But for me the main reason is that throw off. I had cheap drums in my younger years that had a similar throw off and I used them out of necessity, but now I have a couple of Tama snares a Black Panther and a DW that all have VASTLY superior throw offs. I have two different songs in our set where I takes the snares on and off, and trying to get the P-85 to throw back on without missing a beat is almost impossible. I have used it a couple of times during practice and I am pretty sure I am just going to sell it. To my ears it just sounds like a $100 steel snare. Maybe Im missing something but I just don't see it as special. I have an old steel CB700 snare that my daughter and I refurbished for her that sounds about the same as the acrolite. I just don't get the infatuation.
 
Didn't mean to come across as an attack and I only used the term "junk" because of your own description of the build quality. We have different tastes in drum sounds and I should have respectfully pointed that out, if at all. My apologies for my stupid and rude post.

No problem. All is well. You did center on one point that I did bring up, and that is Ludwig's lackluster hardware. I agree. in fact, I focused on that. But my point is that I still buy their stuff, not because of innovation on their part, but because of their distinctive (and in my opinion, great) sound. I like the concepts of user friendliness the Tama has come up with.If Ludwog could incorporate some of that into their drums, without sacrificing their sound, I would be over joyed. but, I still buy for sound.
 
But those stock snares are pretty terrible. But for me the main reason is that throw off. I had cheap drums in my younger years that had a similar throw off and I used them out of necessity, but now I have a couple of Tama snares a Black Panther and a DW that all have VASTLY superior throw offs.

I hear what you're saying, and now fully understand why you're confused.

Let me explain.

The Supra/Acrolite/BBeauty are not snare drums, they are time machines. They're fueled by nostalgia, which has a power greater than reason.

To fix your time machine, you'll need the following....

LW3314 (Snare Batter Medium Coated) - $15
C1114 (Snare Resonant Head Clear) - $15
L1930 (20 Strand Snare Wires) - $15.00
P3019 (Black Nylon Washers) - $0.25
P648 (Tension Rod O-Rings) $0.40

Get it tuned up, then whisper the destination/date in the top of your bong before you take a rip.

Protip: Before you leave, double check "today's" date to make it easy to return. You'll probably mess this up once or twice before you learn your lesson.
 
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