So....where do the big bucks for drummers lie?

Another solution: have projects that make money to support the ones that don't. I'm in the UK too, and I know that originals outfits don't always do well. However, most of the folks I work with on originals projects also have other paying gigs on the go.

Most originals bands I've come across on my travels work full time to fund their hobby, and generally have little time to do too much outside work/band. Or, they simply don't wish to.

I bet 95%.

I work 9-5. Rehearse once a week. Play out twice a month at least.

Even IF I wanted to go out make some money by playing covers...I'm not sure where the time is generated from to do so.
 
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You're right. Prostitution is the wrong analogy entirely. This is much worse.

Playing music in public for free is fine under certain circumstances. If you've negotiated a deal whereby you only get paid if the venue gets a certain amount of paying customers, or they sell a certain amount of food or drink, then you could end up not making any money. Or, if the venue isn't charging anyone to enter, and isn't making any money either, then you could perform for free I guess. Or, I could see performing for free if you have an agreement that the club will hire you at a fair wage in the future if you draw an audience or appeal to whatever whim they stipulate.

Lastly, I could see performing for free in a venue that has some sort of recording setup that would allow you to record your show (audio and/or video) for the purpose of putting together promotional material.

But to perform for free, when the the venue is charging for admission or making a profit on food or drink, is doing a disservice to everyone, especially other bands who refuse to sink to your level.

Let's face it, if no one is willing to pay for what you're doing, you probably shouldn't be performing in public. Just put a video up on YouTube and see if that generates any interest. Otherwise, you're just performing to stroke your own egos.

If you're convinced that a performance will result in new fans for your band, rent a hall and put on a show. Then you can charge admission or not.

I think you need to rein it in a bit pal. You make some good points but you're treading across the line into personal insults which is not something I see too often on this website, and think it's all the better for it.

If all bands who play for nothing because, fundamentally, they enjoy playing and do this thing for fun/hobby are 'worse than prostitutes' then you're painting with a pretty broad brush, and directly attacking lots of drummers on this very site, and lots of bands generally.

If that's where your head is, then so be it.
 
If I have insulted anyone or hit a vein, so be it. Musicians need to understand and be aware that their actions have far reaching consequences. As someone already mentioned, we've done this to ourselves.
 
Musicians need to understand and be aware that their actions have far reaching consequences.

So, no one should ever play music unless they are getting paid for it? And music should only be performed by paid professionals? Why don't we lobby our governments to enforce these rules? It could be a great jobs program.
Should doctors or lawyers or mechanics or plumbers never give free advice? Should off-duty cops just walk away when they see a purse-snatching or a fight? I'm a computer expert and I've given some advice on this forum, how should I collect my fees (they are normally pretty steep for my paying customers)?
Curious, though, how does anyone ever start to become a musician. Do you take lessons and practice in complete isolation, only to play publicly when you've reached professional caliber?

we've done this to ourselves.
I disagree. It is a simple matter of economics and technology. 500 (or 5000) years ago, if you wanted music, you needed live musicians, and they had probably better live in your neighborhood, and they could probably only play what was popular in your neighborhood. Today, I (and everyone else) can press a button and hear the greatest musician's of any genre from anywhere in the world from the last few decades at least. Indeed, I frequently sit in silence in my house because I'm bombarded with music (and other 'entertainment') I don't like, and never asked for, whenever I go shopping, or pump gas, or drive next to somebody with a loud car stereo.
I'm not saying it is right or good or fair, I'm simply saying it is. And I think it is grossly unfair to blame other musicians.
 
If I have insulted anyone or hit a vein, so be it. Musicians need to understand and be aware that their actions have far reaching consequences. As someone already mentioned, we've done this to ourselves.

You could have hit a vein without insulting anyone.

Just saying.
 
I don't understand how my choosing to perform for free negatively affects anybody else's ability to perform for "big bucks". I have no desire to be a professional drummer, I leave that up to the, uh, professionals. This is like comparing the company slow pitch softball team to the New York Yankees. We aren't in the same league.

Obviously there is a market for performances at the neighborhood beer swills in which hobbiest musicians are willing to provide. Obviously there is a seperate market for performances at multiple venues across the country in which professional musicians are willing to provide.

Let's try this: paid professional musicians are interfering with my opportunities to play for free at the pub down the street. Sounds absurd because it is.
 
So, no one should ever play music unless they are getting paid for it? And music should only be performed by paid professionals?

Did you not read my post above? I think there are several cases where playing for "free" is justified.
 
I don't understand how my choosing to perform for free negatively affects anybody else's ability to perform for "big bucks".

It probably doesn't. I guess it depends where you're performing for free and how talented/entertaining you are.

By offering your services for free, you're taking away the potential income another musician may be depending on. If you're really that good, and have a regular day job where you earn your living, just be cognizant of your actions. Ask yourself what you're really gaining, aside from ego fulfilment.

If you're not that good, and the venue is taking you over a more talented performer to save money, then they'll just spiral to the point where no one will patronize them.

Musicians should be supporting each other, not under-cutting each other. There was a time not long ago when musicians could make a living playing music. It may not have been lucrative for everyone, but it was above the poverty line.
 
It probably doesn't. I guess it depends where you're performing for free and how talented/entertaining you are.

By offering your services for free, you're taking away the potential income another musician may be depending on. If you're really that good, and have a regular day job where you earn your living, just be cognizant of your actions. Ask yourself what you're really gaining, aside from ego fulfilment.

If you're not that good, and the venue is taking you over a more talented performer to save money, then they'll just spiral to the point where no one will patronize them.

Musicians should be supporting each other, not under-cutting each other. There was a time not long ago when musicians could make a living playing music. It may not have been lucrative for everyone, but it was above the poverty line.


What you're saying doesn't really make sense. If it is truly "pro" then money is changing hands and that of itself opens it up to competition. The act of playing music itself is NOT the competition but the paying gigs are. This is just simple free market economics. This is not new. Buddy Rich once played a gig a long, long time ago when he had the flu. Someone asked him why he did it when he was so ill, after all he's Buddy Rich. He said something like, if I didn't do it, there'd be 100 drummers behind me that would. Thus is life and our need to work just to maintain what we have. We can lose everything, all we have to do is stop trying...
 
Most originals bands I've come across on my travels work full time to fund their hobby, and generally have little time to do too much outside work/band. Or, they simply don't wish to.

I bet 95%.

I work 9-5. Rehearse once a week. Play out twice a month at least.

Even IF I wanted to go out make some money by playing covers...I'm not sure where the time is generated from to do so.

If you're doing it as a hobby, you can't expect big bucks. Most of the originals outfits I know tend to be - in part - made up of professional musicians with their fingers in a few different pies.

The best paying gigs outside of being a touring musician with a high-profile group or artist are in TV and radio, studio calls, musical theatre, tribute acts and various kinds of function work. There are originals bands who operate outside of the top-40 who are making a living, if not a fortune, as well. It can be done but it takes many years to build up enough of a niche following to put profitable tours together.
 
If you're doing it as a hobby, you can't expect big bucks. Most of the originals outfits I know tend to be - in part - made up of professional musicians with their fingers in a few different pies.

The best paying gigs outside of being a touring musician with a high-profile group or artist are in TV and radio, studio calls, musical theatre, tribute acts and various kinds of function work. There are originals bands who operate outside of the top-40 who are making a living, if not a fortune, as well. It can be done but it takes many years to build up enough of a niche following to put profitable tours together.

And we don't (expect big bucks). We expect nothing. Anything we get, the small payday last weekend for example, the two very big support slots in November, are bonuses.

I agree with what you say.

In fact there is a lot on this thread with which I agree. Except I don't agree with being labelled some kind of pimp/worse than a prostitute for going out, enjoying, and playing music. That's crazy talk. But not surprising. The music industry I've noticed over the years is very greedy. This whining about unpaid, amateur, upstarts stealing the potential limelight and income from professional performers seems to me another materialisation of this greed.
 
I think deep down every drummer wants to inspire and "win hearts and minds" which is very valid. It almost sounds like we're talking about a sense of entitlement here, Like, Ive spent the last 20 years practicing everyday for hours so you need to pay me. Thing is no one forced you to practice that much and no one promised you anything if you did. Although this is a bleak outlook on what music and musicians mean today, it is the reality. I think Paul is sometimes talking about people that haven't worked as hard on their craft making out better than people who have.
 
I think Paul is sometimes talking about people that haven't worked as hard on their craft making out better than people who have.

No, not at all. Anyone who can do well as a musician gets my respect, whether they've worked hard or not. I just wish musicians would stop performing for free, or even PAYING to perform, under the illusion (delusion?) that it's going to get them "noticed" or "more fans". There are many ways to promote your music, your band, your drumming, whatever, without selling yourself short.

If everyone would stand firm on this, venues would have to start sharing the revenue. If a venue can't make a go of it with live music, they're either hiring the wrong bands, or people don't want to hear it anymore.

I have zero sense of entitlement. Music does not owe me a living. I owe EVERYTHING to music, and I am just trying wake people up.

The Roxy and The Whiskey only survive because of where they're located - the world famous Sunset Strip. Bands that play there have to sell tickets to their shows, and generally bribe their friends to attend. It's not real. Bands only play there for the "prestige" and maybe to take some photos and shoot some promo video. That's it.

And competition is not the same as under-cutting, especially when you're charging NOTHING in order to secure a spot at a venue.

The "self fulfillment" argument doesn't hold water either. You can get fulfillment in a rehearsal hall. Performing in front of an audience (especially when done for free) is really about the ego and its need to be stroked.
 
You ain't going to make money because there are too many bands and too many drummers that all sound the same. It's simple supply and demand economics. If you wanna make money, you gotta be the best or just super lucky.
 
No, not at all. Anyone who can do well as a musician gets my respect, whether they've worked hard or not. I just wish musicians would stop performing for free, or even PAYING to perform, under the illusion (delusion?) that it's going to get them "noticed" or "more fans". There are many ways to promote your music, your band, your drumming, whatever, without selling yourself short.

If everyone would stand firm on this, venues would have to start sharing the revenue. If a venue can't make a go of it with live music, they're either hiring the wrong bands, or people don't want to hear it anymore.

I have zero sense of entitlement. Music does not owe me a living. I owe EVERYTHING to music, and I am just trying wake people up.

The Roxy and The Whiskey only survive because of where they're located - the world famous Sunset Strip. Bands that play there have to sell tickets to their shows, and generally bribe their friends to attend. It's not real. Bands only play there for the "prestige" and maybe to take some photos and shoot some promo video. That's it.

And competition is not the same as under-cutting, especially when you're charging NOTHING in order to secure a spot at a venue.

The "self fulfillment" argument doesn't hold water either. You can get fulfillment in a rehearsal hall. Performing in front of an audience (especially when done for free) is really about the ego and its need to be stroked.

You're talking rubbish

If everyone stands firm there'll be thousands of pretty frustrated musicians who only ever rehearse.

And, two generations from now, maybe things may, in your perception, have improved. Maybe not. It's hard to prove. Personally I think it would have completely the opposite effect. I know two signed bands at least who entered the business through exactly this route. Your way would remove that access point to them.

But I'll tell you what...I'm not sacrificing what I have now, based on your conviction that by doing so I'm somehow going to be doing musicians some kind of service. What, will they give me a plaque or something ?? Christ alive.

Sod that.

And if you think that the fulfilment gained from playing in a rehearsal room is the same fulfilment as you get playing to an audience (an audience whom, for the record, would have no reason to know the band are playing for free, so give no favours away let me assure you) then I'm sorry but you've stepped from blithely insulting people (who you'll never meet....so hey, who gives a shit about politeness, and courtesy), to talking complete and utter tripe. It makes you sound like you've never played live, only ever rehearsed.

I don't know if you're trolling or believe this crap you're writing.
 
You ain't going to make money because there are too many bands and too many drummers that all sound the same. It's simple supply and demand economics. If you wanna make money, you gotta be the best or just super lucky.

Yup.

And, start early, and show an almost single-minded willingness (in the case of drummers for sure) to make a living from music.

I'm not sure about the luck bit when it comes to drumming...I think most drummers, and many instrumentalists, have worked pretty hard, even if only to learn the instrument to a decent/high level.

Utmost respect to those musicians who have made it. It's usually been earnt, if one ignores the obvious X Factor impact on music.
 
Music isn't just about money, it's about art.

Numerous pros have said you should be a drummer, because you love drumming. If you make money at it, that's just a bonus.

Steve Smith talked about in his "I'D Hit That" podcast interview how some of his projects make money, some do not, and he only hopes it balances out at the end of the year. He admits he would make more money had he stayed with Journey in 1998, but the money aspect doesn't drive him.

Kenny Aronoff discussed in his interview in Drumhead magazine not every gig or session he takes is the best financial decision, but he does them anyway to keep his name going.

Josh Freese has said in several interviews he will do free or deeply discounted sessions for his friends, or musicians he really wants to work with.

And then there are places like the Baked Potato which is a tiny room where huge name drummers will go to blow off steam. I'm sure they get paid a small something for showing up, but it's clear the guys that do are not just doing these small gigs for the money.

And then every band member who's ever gone off to do a solo album: clearly that is more about fulfillment than money, because with rare exceptions (like a Phil Collins), most solo albums don't do as well as the established band's albums do.
 
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