Time keeping

G

gomez

Junior Member
Hello everybody,

I have a rushing problem.

In order to improve, i have started to practice some timing exercises recently. For example, playing on a metronome where there is 1 bar of clicks and then 2 bars of silence (as it is instructed in B. Greb's video). Even I practise with the most comfortable grooves, i find out that i am rushing of around one 16th every 3 bars. And very rarely, i can play on the exact time, you know, for which you don't hear the click.

Friends, I appreciate your inputs for my below questions :))
-do you really think that time keeping & sense of time can be improvable ? or, is it a talent ?
-what are your experiences with improvement? any success stories would motivate me very much. (i am kind of desperate)
-how much of importance it has to play on exact time so that you cannot hear the click. or, shouldn't i bother about this.

Fyi, i have been playing for around 6-7 years now, i think i am a relaxed player and have a sufficient technique.

THANKS IN ADVANCE.

Regards,
Gomez
 
gomez said:
In order to improve, i have started to practice some timing exercises recently. For example, playing on a metronome where there is 1 bar of clicks and then 2 bars of silence (as it is instructed in B. Greb's video). Even I practise with the most comfortable grooves, i find out that i am rushing of around one 16th every 3 bars. And very rarely, i can play on the exact time, you know, for which you don't hear the click.

Friends, I appreciate your inputs for my below questions :))
-do you really think that time keeping & sense of time can be improvable ? or, is it a talent ?
-what are your experiences with improvement? any success stories would motivate me very much. (i am kind of desperate)
-how much of importance it has to play on exact time so that you cannot hear the click. or, shouldn't i bother about this.
Click to expand...

I know this feeling. You're on the right track ... keep working with the metronome and at very slow tempos where you feel your groove break down. Keep going at that tempo until you feel the groove at a snail's pace.

Repeat ... keep trying ... stay as relaxed as you can ... don't forget to have fun with it ... and appreciate that improvement in this areas is a gradual process. Yes, some musicians have more natural aptitude for tempo and timing than others but anyone can improve their timing if that's what they want to do. The first step is to know things aren't ideal and to want to improve in that area - you've already made that step.

I'm not where I want to be either (probably never will be) but my time is gradually improving thanks to a metronome, recordings, a desire not to gloss over the warts in my playing ... and a hankering for the groove :)
 
don't give up on this! i've been working on timing too using almost exactly the same method you're using. i programmed the metronome very much like you did, with clicks in some measures followed by a long gap without clicks. i've been playing straight groove while the metronome is clicking and an improvised fill while it's not clicking, which is tougher. i've been working pretty hard on bridging that gap without losing the beat and slowly but surely i'm getting better at it. it's not easy, so don't feel too discouraged. i've been playing a long time and i still have trouble with it.
 
Ya know what? Most of the best drummers in the business use click tracks when recording because no one has perfect time... imho. Keep up the good practice you're putting in. You WILL improve!
 
-do you really think that time keeping & sense of time can be improvable ? or, is it a talent ?

yes, you can improve playing in time. It's not talent, tho some drummers have an easier time with it.


-what are your experiences with improvement? any success stories would motivate me very much. (i am kind of desperate)

First, like the others have said, practice with a metronome, make it your friend and internalize that click so it's echoing in your head.

A couple of things: In order to play ing time, your subdivisions have to be in time. If you are playing 16th notes on the hit hat, those have to be even . If you play an inverted paradiddle as say, a beat pattern, with accents on two and four and the rest of the notes are ghosted, then all those notes have to be played evenly. If your paradiddles are not developed, and you are playing catch-up because you don't have the facility and the pattern is sloppy, then you may end up out of time. Not only do your big notes have to be in time (say 1 and 3 on the bass drum, two and four on the snare), but all the subdivions in between those notes have to be in time.

Next, your body motion can dictate time. To me, this was everything when I realized it. For a very simple example, say you are playing 1 and 3 on the bass, 2 and 4 on the snare and 8th notes on the hihat. For the snare hand, bend your wrist in the air on the AN OF ONE and then hit the snare on TWO. In other words, do a Moeller motion, bending the wrist on the 'an of one'. Now you are "playing" the air, even tho you are not striking anything. You are playing the space between the notes. If you do this everytime and play the air (which has a time-count) then you will always be in time. If the tempo is faster, play it faster, but with the same motion. You'll be in time. I could go on and on about this, but think of your motion as a count. It almost fool proof. Like anything, start slow and get the motions into your muscle memory. Pretty soon, you just do without thinking. Most of the really good timekeepers pro or otherwise do this even tho they might not realize it. It's not an ellusive concept, everybody can play in time. We have to focus on the little details to get to the big picture. There is ALWAYS a reason for problems...it's not "oh I just cant do it" or "that guy just has natural talent"



-how much of importance it has to play on exact time so that you cannot hear the click. or, shouldn't i bother about this.

I would start by playing to a click and trying to get it dead-nuts on the click to start. You are trying to improve your time, so try to nail it. The goal is perfect time, but none of us can play perfectly. But dont get sloppy either, really try to get it right on. Later, you can play around with the click and play behind or on top of the beat....but for learning purposes, try to hit it right on for now until you can internalize it.

Hope this helps a little. Good luck!
 
dairyairman said:
and slowly but surely i'm getting better at it. it's not easy, so don't feel too discouraged. i've been playing a long time and i still have trouble with it.
Click to expand...

Fully relate, Derrierre. It's a slow process that takes time to sort out, with the first stop of the journey being the realisation that something weird is going on in Tempo Land. The next step being spending some quality time with a metronome or playing with studio recordings.

Agree with Boomka about consciously reminding yourself that it's better to hang around and savour each note rather than be in a rush to get to the end of a song.

I've come to believe that rushing is a sign that the balance between my wish for achievement and my desire for hedonistic musical pleasure is out of whack. It's a hangover from my deluded and unrealistic musical ambitions in my youth - basically a bad habit. So I have to consciously recalibrate back towards pleasure - the reason why I started playing in the first place. If my focus is on the pleasure side of things then I can be a bit off but the music still feels good :)

The metronome plays a role here too, because more evenness = a groovier groove. I have zero fear of ever being inhumanly perfect :)
 
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There are many ways you can use the click to work on your timing. You should increase difficulty progressively. If two bars of no click is too difficult, try something easier. Below are some things I've used -- and still use.

1. Click on all quarter notes. You should get absolutely comfortable with this before trying the more difficult ones.

2. Click on 1 and 3.

3. Click on 2 and 4.

4. One measure of quarter notes, one measure of silence.

5. Click on 1.

6. Two measures of quarter notes, two measures of silence.

7. Click on 1 of every other measure.

8. One measure of quarter notes, three measures of silence.

9. Four measures of quarter notes, four measures of silence.

10. Click on 1 of every fourth measure.

11. Click on 1 of every eighth measure.

12. Click on 1 of every twelveth measure.

13. Click on 1 of every sixteenth measure.

14. And so on...

All of these variations help with your macro timing, "big time", or feeling entire measures and groups of measures. Always pay attention to whether you're dragging or rushing. If you're rushing, lay back and relax -- slightly leaning backwards physically helps with this idea. If you're dragging, play with more assertion and rhythmic tightness -- slightly leaning forwards physically helps here. Make very minute adjustments to your time feel, and try to correct the timing problem in the course of a few measures. Don't just "jerk" right back on the click, but gently glide toward it. This will teach you how you can manipulate time in subtle ways, and what it really feels like to drag and rush purposefully -- and what it feels like to play with consistent timing.

Another method of using the click is to have it play on the subdivisions of the quarter note:

1. Click on every 8th note up beat.

2. Click on the "and" of one of each measure.

3. Click on every "a" of a quarter note. 1e&A 2e&A 3e&A 4e&A

4. Click on the "a" of one of each measure.

5. Click on every "e" of quarter notes. 1E&a 2E&a 3E&a 4E&a.

6. Click on the "e" of one of each measure.

7. (For triplet or swung feel) Click on every "let" of a quarter note. 1-trip-LET 2-trip-LET...

8. Click on the "let" of one of each measure.

9. Click on every "trip". 1-TRIP-let 2-TRIP-let...

10. Click on the "trip" of one of each measure.

These will develop your micro timing as well as your macro timing, and all of these are more difficult than the exercises of the first set. Again, you can increase the amount of measures between clicks to increase the challenge... but few people need that much challenge!

When you're working with the click track, start out by playing a simple groove. As the groove sets in, start embellishing it a bit, and eventually play a few fills. If you fall out of the time, return to the simple groove and start over. Practice different tempos; each tempo feels different, and each tempo deserves equal attention. Spend a few days working on a single tempo, but vary the click track. Change the tempo when you can groove and fill fairly steadily, but don't get overly pedantic. Developing good time feel takes time, and you shouldn't expect to fully master one area before moving on to other things.
 
One of the most valuable lessons I ever received was this:

Play a straight-ahead rock beat, kick on 1 and 3, snare on 2 and 4, and try to bury the click. Obviously, this is difficult, but simply practicing "bury the click" won't do the trick on its own.

Next step: Intentionally drag. Make the kicks and snares arrive slightly AFTER the click, but a small amount, ideally as if you were to play a flam between the click and kick/snare (the click would be the grace note, arriving first). Try to make the distance between the clicks and kicks/snares as consistent as possible.

Next step: Intentionally rush. Same as above, but make the kicks and snares arrive slightly BEFORE the click. Don't get too far ahead!

Next step: Play with the click for a few measures, then slow down just a teensy bit and play behind the click for a few measures, then speed up a bit and play with the click, then rush a bit and play ahead of the click, then fall back onto the click, and so on.

Once you gain control over speeding up and slowing down (I think slowing down will be trickier for the OP), you'll be more able to stay on center!

Yes, it is certainly possible to improve your time, and I have made tremendous progress, more than I ever thought I would. Hang in there!

Get together with friends and play some songs, and throw on the metronome. Don't play with them, plow through and stay with the click, just to experience other musos dragging and rushing.
 
Tempo among musicians doesnt change unless the other musicians change with you.

Never allow another musician to offload their responsibility to the songs beats per minute to you. Refer them to a metronome should they try.

Consider bringing a metronome to your practices...and work with one constantly...trying to have the skill to be behind, on and ahead of the 'real' tempo as your artistic sense dictates.

It is possible that your timing is grossly poor...but my suggestions above should correct that with dilligent work.

Tempo usually accelerates when a drummer is playing ahead of the beat and the other musicians speed up to stay with the percieved pulse. I say it this way as my experience shows that your average drummer is better at keeping a consistant beat per minute than your average non-drummer.


If you are finding that you are keeping time when not with other musicians(per metronome) but you are speeding up when with other musicians, I suggest identifying and listening to drummers that are known for playing on and behind the tempo(as you are playing ahead of the tempo)...this should help with developing a greater range of tempo perception and expression that can assist with keeping inexperienced musicians on the agreed beats per minute...or find musicians who are better skilled at tempo control....or better in tune with how you are wanting to place the feel of time in your playing.

In the end...you are not a metronome for useage by other musicians.
 
like i was saying before, i've been practicing with the metronome a lot and listening to recordings of myself with my band and i've learned some things about my own timing problems.

  • if the song is exciting or intense, i tend to rush.
  • i tend to rush in the choruses and drag in the verses.
  • if a fill is simple, i tend to rush it.
  • if a fill is complex, i tend to drag it.

i've learned to be careful depending on what i'm playing and what's going on with the music. you may want to watch out for things like this too.
 
gomez said:
Hello everybody,

I have a rushing problem.

In order to improve, i have started to practice some timing exercises recently. For example, playing on a metronome where there is 1 bar of clicks and then 2 bars of silence (as it is instructed in B. Greb's video). Even I practise with the most comfortable grooves, i find out that i am rushing of around one 16th every 3 bars. And very rarely, i can play on the exact time, you know, for which you don't hear the click.

Friends, I appreciate your inputs for my below questions :))
-do you really think that time keeping & sense of time can be improvable ? or, is it a talent ?
-what are your experiences with improvement? any success stories would motivate me very much. (i am kind of desperate)
-how much of importance it has to play on exact time so that you cannot hear the click. or, shouldn't i bother about this.

Fyi, i have been playing for around 6-7 years now, i think i am a relaxed player and have a sufficient technique.

THANKS IN ADVANCE.

Regards,
Gomez
Click to expand...

Just wondering what kind of metronome you use. I would like one so I can do so many bars of clicks and so many of silence.
 
dairyairman said:
like i was saying before, i've been practicing with the metronome a lot and listening to recordings of myself with my band and i've learned some things about my own timing problems.

  • if the song is exciting or intense, i tend to rush.
  • i tend to rush in the choruses and drag in the verses.
  • if a fill is simple, i tend to rush it.
  • if a fill is complex, i tend to drag it.
i've learned to be careful depending on what i'm playing and what's going on with the music. you may want to watch out for things like this too.
Click to expand...

Nicely analysed, Derrierre!

The only thing I'd add to the list is the tendency to speed up during transitions.
 
i'm only human!

i just learned the one about rushing simple fills and dragging complex fills over the past week or two since i've been practicing with the metronome on for a few measures of groove and then off for a measure of fill.
 
I've been playing with quarter notes at band practice (loud enough so I always hear it, even when I'm on it). We often run through the set twice so I'll use it the first time around and not at all the second time around.

Similarly, I may use it for an entire practice before a show, and then not at all at the show.

We played a show this weekend and the two other bands on the bill both used sequencers so their drummers had headphones on most of the time. I was worried that I would sound loose following those guys, but it didn't really turn out that way. The groove and tempo felt fine, and based on the feedback I got after our set, we sounded more organic than the other two (which you might expect).

I credit this with simple quarter note click use at rehearsal (only heard by me) helping everyone in the band feel and play the beats where they should be (or at least very close).
 
A simple, free, way to do it is to use Audacity's "Generate > Click Track" feature, then do "Generate > Silence" to chop out parts.
 
Time exists in your head. Everything drumming exists in your head first. It's a mental thing, your body will do whatever your head tells it to do.

Like Boomka said, if you are rushing, it's your brain that wants to rush. What exactly IS your hurry? You need to find that out.

Keeping steady time in the midst of musical chaos is a fairly difficult mental dicipline. You cannot get caught up in any excitement, you are not allowed, or else your timing will surely accelerate. You have to be even steven, steady freddy, in a world of excitement and fluctuations. It boils down to the concept and execution of tempo and meter. You have to posess complete confidence and absolutely know exactly what the tempo is, and be able to maintain that precise tempo in the midst of transitions, excited soloists, dragging soloists, and everything else.
What works for me is I try and detach a little. I don't allow myself to get "into" it to the point that I lose control. It's like everybody on the bus is partying, but I can't because I have to drive this bus. Let the little kids play, somebody has to be the adult here and set the pace, or the bus will drive off the mountain road. Let the guitarists have their fun, interact with the crowd, there's serious business to attend to. Tempo and meter.
Tempo = the speed of the song
Meter = maintaining the exact same measure of time between 1/4 notes (for example) from front to back.
Train your brain to know where the beat is and your body has no choice but to play along.
This is all just a drawn out explanation of Boomkas post.

All this being said, I still play some stuff too fast sometimes and I still speed up on certain things, it's a lifelong vigilance thing. Recording yourself in a band setting is probably the most invaluable tool for identifying and correcting mistakes, so use that metronome and record yourself always. Listen back hard. The first goal is no cringes lol.
 
Time keeping is just one of those things that takes years to improve on. Just keep using a click whether it's just 1/4 notes or any of the above ways and keep at it. I myself have issues with time keeping and from my experience, there just aren't any shortcuts.
 
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