Why Is There Such An Anti-Jazz Vibe Here?

I'm really happy to hear that. There was too much drama and hate floating around for my liking. As I always say.... MY DRUMMING BROTHAS.... let us not fight each other.... we are all tub thumpers in the end. Let us instead focus our efforts on guitarists with their loud amps, singers who are constantly offbeat and bassists who shoot us dirty looks.Back on here after a brief break.
And yes, this all spawned out of my brain, except for the part(s) I admit to stealing. I get into these creative spurts once in a while.
Moldy, I knew there was another reason why you're on my friends list. That post was epic, needed, timely & a real tonic for all. I think I'm going to give up the dizzy heights of pub rock and form a funky jazz police death folk hip metal country hardcore steamed pollyunsaturated distinctly average wy band in a blatent grasp for poularity. Oooo, I almost forgot, my new band name is "simply complicated", I hate the money beat and I even noticed Matt endorses Zildjian
sticks. Did I mention Matt endorses Zildjian sticks?
 
Moldy, I knew there was another reason why you're on my friends list. That post was epic, needed, timely & a real tonic for all. I think I'm going to give up the dizzy heights of pub rock and form a funky jazz police death folk hip metal country hardcore steamed pollyunsaturated distinctly average wy band in a blatent grasp for poularity. Oooo, I almost forgot, my new band name is "simply complicated", I hate the money beat and I even noticed Matt endorses Zildjian
sticks. Did I mention Matt endorses Zildjian sticks?

I could jam to that...
 
(...)Jazz seems to be kinda lump and it's not an everything or nothing sort of genre, as death metal isn't. (...)

Why are you comparing Jazz to Death Metal several times? Are those kind of the respective ends of the spectrum? I don't see it that way.

Well I don't consider myself a jazz musician, but a musician who likes jazz as well as funk, rock or even filmscores. But I virtually don't listen to metal music anymore (if you don't consider a Dream Theater dose every once in a while metal).
I wanted to state 2 reasons why I don't quite like death metal, maybe you as a "metal guy" find it interesting to hear reasons.
One: Those pieces of DM I've heard so far (not hundreds, but some still) have almost none dynamics. Especially the guitar(s) just keep sounding constantly aaall the way through.
Two: DM is aggressive, dark, and always (starting with the band names, even the genre's name) playing around topics like death, darkness, evil, satan, demons, hell, you name it.
I'm very sorry, but to me the premises for a jazz musician to dig into death metal music are not quite the same as vice versa, which kind of makes it different.

Hope noone takes that personally or wants to bash me now, but I think it has to be said once.
 
When we start of talk about aesthetics, we are talking about value, and there is a question of who values what and why. Metal, for example, is largely valued by a working class audience. Jazz is largely valued by a more bourgeoise audience of academics and artistic elites. It even gets funded through donations and public grants.

This being a true statement, just think where jazz began. It began in the poorest areas of American society. Sadly jazz has become just another example of the rich exploiting the poor.
 
This being a true statement, just think where jazz began. It began in the poorest areas of American society. Sadly jazz has become just another example of the rich exploiting the poor.

Not by the folks still actually playing, performing, composing and recording it..............just saying :}
 
Why are you comparing Jazz to Death Metal several times? Are those kind of the respective ends of the spectrum? I don't see it that way.

Well I don't consider myself a jazz musician, but a musician who likes jazz as well as funk, rock or even filmscores. But I virtually don't listen to metal music anymore (if you don't consider a Dream Theater dose every once in a while metal).
I wanted to state 2 reasons why I don't quite like death metal, maybe you as a "metal guy" find it interesting to hear reasons.
One: Those pieces of DM I've heard so far (not hundreds, but some still) have almost none dynamics. Especially the guitar(s) just keep sounding constantly aaall the way through.
Two: DM is aggressive, dark, and always (starting with the band names, even the genre's name) playing around topics like death, darkness, evil, satan, demons, hell, you name it.
I'm very sorry, but to me the premises for a jazz musician to dig into death metal music are not quite the same as vice versa, which kind of makes it different.

Hope noone takes that personally or wants to bash me now, but I think it has to be said once.

No personal offense can be taken. Few death metal bands have a lot of dynamics. I'd recommend listening to Opeth if you were interested in that, or Cynic, there's a few bands that do it but the bulk of DM bands don't do it for sure.

Dark and aggressive are staples of the genre for sure, however your lyrical premesis are very narrow. Death and darkness have a lot to do with. Many bands, however, try to avoid religious topics, the last four you listed. There are DM bands that deal with politics (dying fetus), story telling (Opeth), and even the environment (Gojira).

I'm not saying that jazzers are supposed to love death metal. The dynamic issue is one that will always separate the two genres and the topics separate them for sure. It's more a question of legitimacy, everyone wants to have their shot at being respected. I mean, it's up to you. I don't really have any stake in this battle. I said it in an earlier post, they are all opinions.

Thanks for taking the time to give legitimate reasons, rarely do people take the time to do that much =)

Ian Pasquini
 
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Not by the folks still actually playing, performing, composing and recording it..............just saying :}

For the most part, of course. I do find it interesting historically though. Just think what a stretch it was for Krupa to play at Carnegie hall with Goodman. In many ways it is great but in others it has served to distort the perspective of those without knowledge of the history of the genre.

The death metal comments intrigue me. It sounds like pop music to me. I can hear everything right away. There is no mystery. I wonder why it is mentioned alongside jazz. I know no jazz musician who derides death metal in conversation. I don't know any metal musician who even mention jazz.

In fact the only comment I've heard recently was from a rock guitarist I played a gig with. He said "I am too angular to play jazz". He meant he could not swing. Hardly derogatory one way or the other.

At my students birthday party I sat and watched several metal DVD's owned by my student's dad. They were great. A bit poppy for me but that was fine.

I still do not see any real cross genre issues.
 
The death metal comments intrigue me. It sounds like pop music to me. I can hear everything right away. There is no mystery. I wonder why it is mentioned alongside jazz...

Seems to me that the Metal/Jazz comparisons keep getting brought up because, while at opposite ends of the sonic and swing/non-swing spectrum, they both have at their core a very disciplined approach to technique and an almost religious dedication to properly executing the form.
 
Seems to me that the Metal/Jazz comparisons keep getting brought up because, while at opposite ends of the sonic spectrum, they both have at their core a very disciplined approach to technique and an almost religious dedication to properly executing the form.

Maybe.....but no generalizations apply to all approaches in any form of music I have learned in life... that gets into the territory where the evils of true snobery or general ignorance show their ugly heads regardless of genre if you believe in these so called "facts" in a one size fits all "correct" approach.

Play with feeling, emotion and intergrity regarding your choice of approach {technique/conceptual etc..} and arm yourself with as much gained knowledge, wisdom and hands on experience as you can muster over time and simply let the music be and let it speak for itself.
 
Seems to me that the Metal/Jazz comparisons keep getting brought up because, while at opposite ends of the sonic and swing/non-swing spectrum, they both have at their core a very disciplined approach to technique and an almost religious dedication to properly executing the form.

I'd say this applies to most serious musicians. There are some blinding players across all genres. This is why I find it hard to see any real issues in my day to day life dealing with musicians. Perhaps though in Australia this lack of biggotry between styles does not reflect what goes on overseas. I do know many female drummers in the US get a hard time but we love them in Australia. I may simply be too far away.
 
Hey, it was an observation. I'll let you guys battle it out over who hath more wisdom.

But I'll just say that I think you're delusional if you think that most drummers have the technique obsession of your typical metal drummer and typical jazz drummer. They have more in common than you seem willing to admit.
 
This being a true statement, just think where jazz began. It began in the poorest areas of American society. Sadly jazz has become just another example of the rich exploiting the poor.

I am not so sure this statement applies to jazz, like it would to blues, bluegrass, rap, or country music. Jazz began in New Orleans with the Creoles, who were not a terrifically impoversihed lot - many being considered middle and upper crust society. They were also disciplined in classical music, many being schooled in France. Hence all the wind instruments, stand up bass, et al.
 
I'd say this applies to most serious musicians. There are some blinding players across all genres. This is why I find it hard to see any real issues in my day to day life dealing with musicians. Perhaps though in Australia this lack of biggotry between styles does not reflect what goes on overseas. I do know many female drummers in the US get a hard time but we love them in Australia. I may simply be too far away.


Most musicians I know just focus on the business of getting about doing what it is they do and have little interest or time to worry about what others want to do in whatever choice of genre they have choosen to express themselves. Being serious or a serious musician doesn't mean you lack flexability and not having a open mind to other ways and approaches to playing. If they did stay stuck in one place they would never continue to take other things in that catches their ears and grow and learn and change over time.

It's the arm chair quarterbacks, very extremely close minded musicians and music critics on the sidelines who aren't in the actual "game" that put of everything into a tidy box and talk about the "rules" and what is acceptable musical behavior that causes the subsequent "noise" factor.

Many of the REAL snobs fall into this camp from my experience........
 
Hey, it was an observation. I'll let you guys battle it out over who hath more wisdom.

But I'll just say that I think you're delusional if you think that most drummers have the technique obsession of your typical metal drummer and typical jazz drummer. They have more in common than you seem willing to admit.


Well call me an exception because i'm all about the music first and foremost which has me focus on just what degree of technique is needed to express myself to that end WITHIN the music best playing with other people. Louie Bellson taught me this important tip and lesson some 35 years ago. Thanks Louie!

Carry on......
 
Most musicians I know just focus on the business of getting about doing what it is they do and have little interest or time to worry about what others want to do in whatever choice of genre they have choosen to express themselves. Being serious or a serious musician doesn't mean you lack flexability and not having a open mind to other ways and approaches to playing. If they did stay stuck in one place they would never continue to take other things in that catches their ears and grow and learn and change over time.

It's the arm chair quarterbacks, very extremely close minded musicians and music critics on the sidelines who aren't in the actual "game" that put of everything into a tidy box and talk about the "rules" and what is acceptable musical behavior that causes the subsequent "noise" factor.

Many of the REAL snobs fall into this camp from my experience........

Agreed. Many do not understand what it is like to be a pro musician and try to push their own prejudices onto it. Pro's just get on with it regardless and do the best job they can.

Obviously this mentality we witness is from the schoolyard. The "My brand of car is better!" idea.
 
I bounce between playing music and cartooning so this conversation made me wonder about the equivalent cartooning styles to music styles.

I would see Robert Crumb as being the cartoon equivalent to metal - edgy, outrageous, manic, dextrous and very much for the boys

Gary Larson (who is my fave) might be Bob Dylan (far from my fave) - absolutely brilliant but the artwork is plain

The creator of Dilbert reminds me of the White Stripes - dead simple but very clever

On old political cartoonist in Oz like Larry Pickering could be like Uncle Frank - hardnosed irreverence for politicians but a virtuoso. I find a number of the best political cartoonists are jazz-like in that their artwork "swings"

Randy Glaswergen is like a pop act (although a good one) - lots of well-crafted plastic with strong commercial sensibilities

My own cartoons are more like Talking Heads - based on quirky social observation done with a simple, synthetic approach

BTW, I have never talked in depth with another cartoonist about styles because none of us give a damn - we just do what we do because that's what we do and then we hope some sucker will throw money at us for it.
 
I am not so sure this statement applies to jazz, like it would to blues, bluegrass, rap, or country music. Jazz began in New Orleans with the Creoles, who were not a terrifically impoversihed lot - many being considered middle and upper crust society. They were also disciplined in classical music, many being schooled in France. Hence all the wind instruments, stand up bass, et al.

I suppose it would apply to how long one defines the beginning. Would the early days also include Ella Fitzgerald being taken off the street by Webb or is that too late?

Honest question.
 
A lot of people just say "I haven't noticed anything like that". Well, it's real easy not to notice it when you're not a jazz musician. However, I have grown quite tired of this constant label of snobbery being thrown at jazz musicians. Like in a different thread I was reading earlier when somebody said "We're not all jazz snobs who think that drumming has to have rules and regulations and that somehow "talent" means playing with the smallest amount of gear possible."

I'm so sick of people constantly singling out jazz musicians as snobs. I have never heard anybody here refer to people as being rock or metal snobs. It's always jazz just getting singled out, and if you think there aren't any rock or metal snobs then you live in a fantasy world.

I came here because I love discussing music, especially with other musicians. Yes, jazz is my favorite, but there are a lot of other styles I enjoy as well, and I love to talk about them with other musicians. However, there's just such a negative vibe towards jazz musicians and I don't understand why.

BTW I'll shatter the above quote with two words: Louie Bellson. Louie often used a very large kit and was the nicest musician I ever met, hands down.

I am sorry to say this, but the snobbery label is well earned, IMO. I actually love to talk about jazz with jazz music lovers (and not all are that way), even though I was reared in rock and blues, mostly. But I have to say, at least in my experiences, jazz is the next thing to classical music in having the most snobbery. I am not sure where it comes from, though I suspect alot of university jazz labs are the culprit. Maybe you don't see it, but jazz musicians can do and say some of the most demeaning things to other musicians that I just do not see musicians from other genres doing.
 
Agreed. Many do not understand what it is like to be a pro musician and try to push their own prejudices onto it. Pro's just get on with it regardless and do the best job they can.

Obviously this mentality we witness is from the schoolyard. The "My brand of car is better!" idea.

Yes it reminds me of being stuck in a elementary school behind the gym after school confrontation scenario wy that NEVER changes no matter how many years pass after the fact..........
 
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