MOELLER METHOD

Re: Short Moeller Method Video

I'm concerned and actually worried about the keyboard wrist DPS mentioned.

Your focus shouldn’t be on the wrist, but on the entire motion of upper arm, forearm and hand. The motion of the Moeller stroke is a feeling, and it is almost as strong as a reflex. Once you have it, you will know it. Once you know it, there is no longer anything to worry about. It is nothing short of enlightenment.

Alex

P.S. Whatever you do, don’t practice any exercises to “straighten” your wrist out. Remember what Freddie Gruber says, “There are no straight lines in nature”.
 
Re: Short Moeller Method Video

Your focus shouldn’t be on the wrist, but on the entire motion of upper arm, forearm and hand. The motion of the Moeller stroke is a feeling, and it is almost as strong as a reflex. Once you have it, you will know it. Once you know it, there is no longer anything to worry about. It is nothing short of enlightenment.

Alex

P.S. Whatever you do, don’t practice any exercises to “straighten” your wrist out. Remember what Freddie Gruber says, “There are no straight lines in nature”.

Thanks, no worries..but I won't utilize the moeller for everything.. say with a linear groove played at a moderate or fast tempo that requires double strokes in which I would ghost.. Or could I?
 
Re: Short Moeller Method Video

It is interesting that you did not address or even consider my comments, but instead chose to entrench yourself in your position.

Whenever there is a good shot of Vinnie Colauita’s right hand/wrist in the video below, it clearly shows it cocking down. Hmm…it seems there are a lot of very good drummers that have your “keyboard wrist” problem…or maybe it isn’t a problem, but just the way the hand and wrist naturally function?

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/vinniecolaiutatweaked.html

Alex, I routinely spend time with one of the top clinicians and teachers in the world, and have for years. Drummers like Vinnie and Gadd cherish his advice and coaching. My comments here are meant to give back to the community some of the things I learned from him. Plenty of people in the forum find this information useful, including Jacob. Up to a very high level, I feel Dom's words can safely be taken as gospel. If you feel different, that is completely okay with me. DPS
 
Re: Short Moeller Method Video

Uh, just by watching the physics of Jacob's hand and stick movements, you can tell this is "correct" Moeller technique, whatever that means. Anyone who has Moeller technique down will say that it's pretty much flawless and "correct".

There is such thing as analyzing someone's technique too much.
 
Re: Short Moeller Method Video

Thirty odd years ago I was taught to warm up my wrist/arms by taking a pair of sticks, grasp them together in front of me like a curl bar, wrists at the center of the sticks and then invert my arms by curling the sticks - almost as if you were trying to snap them, until you wrists were almost back in the same position but your finger tips are pointing away from your body "inverted" so to speak. You (or at least I)
can't get to the final position and thats not the idea - you will find the resistance stops you (before tearing tendons/muscles) but you get a tad closer each time as you repeat it. After a couple of these stretches
(done carefully) your wrists/arms do seem to loosen up. I guess its kind of a "resistance" type exercize. Since I've been an off and on again drummer over the years I've never come close to doing these on a daily basis. I'm wondering now in the year 2007 if anyone else here has done these over the years and are they safe ? Some of what we learned and thought in the 60's seems to be found to be hazardous in the 00's ! Anybody ? Thanks...
 
Re: Moeller Method

but I won't utilize the moeller for everything.. say with a linear groove played at a moderate or fast tempo that requires double strokes in which I would ghost.. Or could I?

DD1: I think you have touched on a very important question here. I believe there is only one real stroke, which is based on the Moeller movement. The stroke starts in the shoulder, travels down the bones and joints of the arm, and eventually propels the hand and wrist towards the drum. IMO every other drum stroke is a derivation of this movement. (Doubles, triples, etc.)

What I am trying to say is the entire arm is involved in each stroke, no matter how small. I've attached a video demonstration, in which I play very small soft strokes to very big loud strokes. To demonstrate the movement of the arm in this video, I keep my fingers firmly on the sticks when playing softly. However, if I did use my fingers, I would still be using my entire arm for each stroke.

Regards,

Alex
 

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Re: Short Moeller Method Video

Your focus shouldn’t be on the wrist, but on the entire motion of upper arm, forearm and hand. The motion of the Moeller stroke is a feeling, and it is almost as strong as a reflex. Once you have it, you will know it. Once you know it, there is no longer anything to worry about. It is nothing short of enlightenment.

Alex

P.S. Whatever you do, don’t practice any exercises to “straighten” your wrist out. Remember what Freddie Gruber says, “There are no straight lines in nature”.

Please don't bring Freddie Gruber into this discussion. The man can't play. If Morello and Chapin have no use for him, then neither do I.

...and as a matter of fact, there ARE straight lines in nature. Light is straight (unless you're going to start talking abut the curvature of space-time itself), there are many crystalline structures that form straight lines, the pull of gravity towards the center of a mass is straight. I could go on...

What I have learned from studying with Morello, Famularo, Chapin, Verdi and Mangini is that every single one of them feels that their method is correct. Every single one of them performs their stokes in a different manner. I remember Chapin telling me how Dom "lunges" durimg his pull-outs. I also remember Joe Morello making fun of Moeller and his elbow accents, saying that he could do more with a straight arm throw ala Gladstone without "looking like he was trying to fly away". I remember Mangini hiding from Chapin a few years ago at NAMM in L.A. because he didn't want to hear Chapin tell him what he was doing wrong. This was after Mangini broke the record for WFD singles, btw.

I have seen Jacob's vids and his hands are terrific. If he has no pain, then there is no argument. All this talk of "correct" Moeller trikes me as odd. Moeller himself did not have the chops that Steve Smith or JoJo have today. Yet we revere him as some sort of unassailable authority on how a drum should be struck. Why? Because Jim Chapin hasn't shut up about him for the last 50 years.

The essence of Moeller is the whip, the concept that one can get more than one strike per large motion (whether this motion involves wrists or the entire arm is irrelevant). Once you understand that concept and how relaxation leads you there, you can figure it out on your own. Moeller wasn't some anatomy expert who wanted to discover the best method of hitting a drum. He just observed what the parade drummers were doing. Get it? PEOPLE WERE ALREADY DOING IT WHEN HE "INVENTED" IT. So why call it "Moeller" and not just a whipping motion?

So just do the same, observe, imitate and use what works for you. If you spend your time worrying about whether your wrist is turned 15.7 degrees off of the lateral axis you'll never actually play any music.

Edit: Alex, I just checked out your video and it was excellent as well. Your dynamic transitions are smooth as all. Good stuff.
 
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Re: Short Moeller Method Video

As far as my input is concerned, the discussion was over before it started: Jacob PM'ed me and told me he was already looking at the wrist thing. End of story.

The masters may disagree about the proper way to do things, but that just means we can not hope to follow all their collective wisdom at once. We should follow something they said, and use that as a springboard for our own ideas. Therefore, I think it makes sense to bring up and discuss their teachings. It is a bit jaded I think to dismiss the discussion with "the masters disagree anyway". Many people on this board have not have first hand access to any of them! Funny story about Mangini by the way. DPS
 
Re: Moeller Method

DD1: I think you have touched on a very important question here. I believe there is only one real stroke, which is based on the Moeller movement. The stroke starts in the shoulder, travels down the bones and joints of the arm, and eventually propels the hand and wrist towards the drum. IMO every other drum stroke is a derivation of this movement. (Doubles, triples, etc.)

What I am trying to say is the entire arm is involved in each stroke, no matter how small. I've attached a video demonstration, in which I play very small soft strokes to very big loud strokes. To demonstrate the movement of the arm in this video, I keep my fingers firmly on the sticks when playing softly. However, if I did use my fingers, I would still be using my entire arm for each stroke.

Regards,

Alex

Thank you, I understand now. This is such a great technique. Thanks
 
Re: Moeller Method

Please don't bring Freddie Gruber into this discussion. The man can't play. If Morello and Chapin have no use for him, then neither do I.

Hi Jeff:

What an awesome post. :>) I agree with a lot of the stuff you said, but here are my comments:

1. So I'm assuming that Freddie Gruber could play at one time?? In looking at the way his arms and wrists move, it seems like he knows what he's doing.

2. I am confused about how Moeller's method of hitting the drum turned into this whip/rebound/multiple stroke thing. This is one of the reasons why I want to see Jim Chapin's video, because in The Moeller Book I can't find anything about a "whipping" motion. Moeller talks about "rotating" and "revolving" the stick towards the drum in a "fanlike" motion, but he is talking about single strokes when providing these instructions.

3. I really do believe there is a "correct" way to hit the drums. However, because each type of grip results in a different type of drum stroke, there is more than one way to hit a drum correctly. In addition, although anatomically humans are exactly alike, we have arms of varying sizes and lengths, our body masses and weight are different, and we all sit at and approach the drumset in slightly different ways. I believe these factors account for the fact that good technique can look different from player to player, even if fundamentally they are all using a "correct" drum stroke. Having said that, there will always be players who accomplish a lot using unorthodox technique. I think Neil Peart is a good example of this. Although I do think he kind of screwed himself up by trying to correct his technique (with the help of Freddie Gruber) and switching to traditional grip. He had something that worked, and worked great, so why not stick with it?

4. I really don't like calling a drum stroke "Moeller" or "the Moeller stroke" any more than you do. That's why I said the drum stroke is "based on the Moeller movement"... but there's more to it than that.

5. I think the fact that the motion of the drum stroke involves the entire arm (and not just the wrist) is very relevant. To me, that is the essence of it. It is much like you wrote in this post:http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?p=319680#post319680


Regards,

Alex
 
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Re: Short Moeller Method Video

Thirty odd years ago I was taught to warm up my wrist/arms by taking a pair of sticks, grasp them together in front of me like a curl bar, wrists at the center of the sticks and then invert my arms by curling the sticks.

Ha ha...yes I am 44, and I remember this exercise from my high school drum corps days! I think any athlete would tell you that stretching is not the warm up, it's something you do after you are warmed up. So it's probably OK to do this exercise, just make sure your muscles are warm and feeling loose.

Personally I don't do any stretching before I play, but I do take it easy for the first 10 minutes or so, especially if I'm playing on a practice pad.

Regards,

Alex
 
Best Moeller Tech. Vid?

Ok, I have seen multiple Moeller Technique vids. I have found JacobKaye's to be the best so far. He makes it seem very relaxing, smooth and fun. As someone who is trying to perfect this technique, would anyone agree that his explanation is the best? Dave Weckl's is a close second, but I find Jacob's to be a bit more friendly.

Sorry if this topic has been touched on already. I used the search button, but didn't come up with my exact question.
 
Re: Best Moeller Tech. Vid?

Derrick Pope described it pretty well in his video (which is available on this site) and a lot of people found that it worked for them.
 
Re: Best Moeller Tech. Vid?

Derrick Pope described it pretty well in his video (which is available on this site) and a lot of people found that it worked for them.

On Derrick Pope's moeller video, he describes it magnificantly. I think that not only he can describe and teach it well, but he also can motivate you to grab your sticks on start practising right away ;) His videos have helped me TREMENDEOUSLY!

Thanks Derrick!
 
Re: Best Moeller Tech. Vid?

Of the videos here on Drummerworld, I have to vote for Derrick Pope's.
 
Re: Best Moeller Tech. Vid?

Derick's wins hands down for me! I have seen many people try to explain the Moeller (some more successfully than others), and others try tonteach it. I have never seen an explanation as clear and simple to follow as the one put forth by Derick.

Paul
 
Re: Best Moeller Tech. Vid?

Awsome feedback. Thanks guys! I will check them all out, and report on them.
 
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