Playing with finesse

Last three posts agree 100%.

Dare I say it but I think Abe, Andy and Matt handled the question with finesse :)

A fine lively and thumping punk drummer does not play with finesse - they can play with skill, excitement, passion and at times imagination, but not "finesse" in the commonly held sense of the word.

When I think of finesse I think of jazz and fusion players like those Abe mentioned. To my mind the king of finesse is still Papa Jo.

I wouldn't call Cozy Powell, Bonzo or Moonie finesse players and those guys are amongst my fave drummers of all time. It doesn't matter - they have plenty of other remarkable qualities. I don't see "finesse" as a synonym of "good". It's a particular quality.

Pretty sure this is DMC's angle.

Yes, this sums up my views well. You're right about a punk drummer - and in some genres, playing with finesse is not desirable and would seem out-of-place and annoying.

Finesse isn't just good feel, or just playing what the song needs, or just great technique. It is all of those things and something more, such as judgment and discretion.
 
Yes, this sums up my views well. You're right about a punk drummer - and in some genres, playing with finesse is not desirable and would seem out-of-place and annoying.

Finesse isn't just good feel, or just playing what the song needs, or just great technique. It is all of those things and something more, such as judgment and discretion.

Reminds me of when Robert Wyatt (one of the first players to fuse rock and jazz) said when jazz drummers play rock they often sound effete and precious. He also said that when rock drummers play jazz they tend to sound clunky and old fashioned. This is before a host of players learned to traverse the genres in the ensuing 40+ years ...

The semantics are tricky - as I said before I also think of delicacy of touch. Like Tony Allen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngxaUjIYX1Y
 
That's where we differ. Technique, feel and judgement seems to me to be more about overall quality than finesse. To me, finesse also incorporates delicacy.

Otherwise you wouldn't bother with a word like "finesse" and instead use a term like really frickin good :)

Yes, Polly, I agree with you, in my first post in this thread I added many "ingredients" that could be incorporated in the meaning and understanding of "finesse". So, delicacy is definitely another key "ingredient" in the matter.

It is our perception of the meaning "finesse" and our evaluation of this skill to the differents drummers we like that's somewhat different, which is what I tried to stipulate in my first post, it can be interpreted so many different way, no one is right or wrong, all the posts have relevent comments and can be applied to DMC's statement.

But I'm just being a pain ha ha, I did say that when I saw the title of the thread the first time, my initial thoughts were exactly like yours...
 
But I'm just being a pain ha ha, I did say that when I saw the title of the thread the first time, my initial thoughts were exactly like yours...

Yep, it's fun to play Devil's Advocate :)

It's a bit of a woolly term, although the semantics are usually understood similarly. For instance, tennis pundits would probably say champs like John McEnroe and Roger Federer wre the great finesse players of the modern era. They wouldn't say that about, say, Pete Sampras or Raphael Nadal, even though they were of the same standard and had their finesse moments.

For me, it's refinement of touch. I think of it as a more feminine quality (talking stereotypes) whereas dynamism could be thought of as more masculine. So, in the small world of women drummers there's an outstanding finesse player - Terri Lynne Carrington: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKl2kXJ_AmE

Then we have Evelyn Glennie http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=IU3V6zNER4g#t=792s

Another good example of a bloke playing with finesse would be Leon Parker:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Uu4asv7xTc

By no means am I saying Leon P is a feminine guy haha (if less overtly alpha male than Bonzo) but his touch is very tasty. I'd think of a finesse player as someone with magic hands who could give a good massage :)
 
If anybody ever had the opportunity to see Bernard Purdie play live, he is the epitome of finesse.

Dennis
 
Reminds me of when Robert Wyatt (one of the first players to fuse rock and jazz) said when jazz drummers play rock they often sound effete and precious. He also said that when rock drummers play jazz they tend to sound clunky and old fashioned. This is before a host of players learned to traverse the genres in the ensuing 40+ years ...

The semantics are tricky - as I said before I also think of delicacy of touch. Like Tony Allen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngxaUjIYX1Y

I think some genres demand more finesse than others - marching band music and punk rock, less, jazz and highbrow pop, more. Finesse is not necessarily a good thing and it would be out-of-place in many situations.
 
If anybody ever had the opportunity to see Bernard Purdie play live, he is the epitome of finesse.

Unfortunately not. Definitely plays with finesse: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCyRPCojb2Q


I think some genres demand more finesse than others - marching band music and punk rock, less, jazz and highbrow pop, more. Finesse is not necessarily a good thing and it would be out-of-place in many situations.

Agree. Once I stopped being a gung ho I teen I found myself increasingly drawn to gentler subtle music - still spirited, but with tasty feel and interesting undercurrents. Some lean more towards power and excitement and for them subtlety is still important but secondary. I'm the other way these days.

Steve Gadd's mini fill at 4: 29 in Stanley Clarke's Concerto for Jazzrock Orchestra is still my favourite fill of all time ... it always makes brings a smile to my face. Actually, he tears it up all the way through.
 
i think the term and use of "finesse" is lost on the vast majority of drummers under the age of 25-30. today it's beastly double kicks and travis barker smashing. yes, it has it's place....but where do you go from there...harder, louder, faster????
 

I would say the second video has more finesse than the first. I kind of see what the first video is trying to acheive, but I don't think finesse is it. I wouldn't say the second video is the epitome of finesse but there certainly are elements there. Some of the more intricate snare/hi-hat work I would class in the finesse category.
 
Dave Weckl,Bill Stewart, Terri Lynn Carrington,...and whoever played on the Alan Holdsworth
release "Secrets". Gary Husband maybe??? I could be wrong there. Also John Bonham on "No Quarter" the Song Remains The Same version.


Didn't read the thread so maybe this has been answered already, but the Drummer on Alan Holdsworths record Secrets was of course Vinnie Colaiuta. I even recall Vinnie saying in an interview that this was the best record he ever made.
 
I love the description used previously in this thread of finesse being subtlety, control, etc. It's someone who COULD play a wild and flashy fill, but doesn't. Sometime showing restraint is tougher than a 32nd note tom tom run. Knowing when not to play is even more important than knowing when to play.

I see a common link (probably an over generalization) of players who have their roots in jazz but cross over to play more straight 8 stuff. Gadd for instance, started out as classically trained, played swing the army (difficult to visualize), then on to greatness across multiple genres. Thee are many other examples.

Hats off to all the smooth players out there.
 
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