Drum finishes - a natural debate

Davo-London

Gold Member
Muse for Andy (Guru - KISS) really and any other custom builders that lurk here. This is in no way meant to be a criticism.

Do you realise that natural finishes are not very popular? I know it's a sign of quality in the builders eye and that you show that the drum is made of solid wood. But playing in a band is a bit flashy, fun, extrovert and showy and so do natural finishes fit with this characteristic?

Over in talkbass, the question was asked: "what is your least favourite finish" and you'd be amazed how many folk don't like natural finishes ... again most custom bass builders assume you want a natural finish with a fancy top veneer.

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f8/you-least-favorite-finishes-982486/

Q: So does this put people off buying custom drums?

Andy over to you ...

Davo
 
Odd...I suppose it depends on the age demographic? I will probably never own another wrapped kit but then I'm 40.

I just don't care for the mass added from a wrap, or in fact that a wrap is flashy and all that. Bare the wood!

I think wood is a wonderful substance and the art of the grainwork in and of itself is stunning in my opinion.
 
Good subject :)

I don't think your question applies especially to "custom builders". In fact, it probably applies more specifically to Guru than just about anyone else. Most custom builders actually base their business model on offering the widest possible range of finishes, & usually the more "out there" the better. I'd go as far as to say the aesthetic choices & size options are the mainstay of the custom build sector.

Major drum manufacturers use veneers to give the impression of solid wood. In fact, many list 100% (insert species) as a selling feature in the belief that customers find value in it, & use the term "solid" to imply quality, whereas it usually refers to the ply construction being of a single species.

I completely get your point about natural finishes not standing out in a stage setting. There's no doubt that a high impact wrap will draw attention & look more spectacular under lighting than any natural finish.

The likes of Craviotto & ourselves are no more "custom" than any major manufacturer. We produce drum series just like anyone else. We both have a custom option (just as DW, Sonor, etc. do), but in our case, that never extends to finishes. Although we realise a natural finish isn't for everyone, & therefore limits our potential customer base, we have to stick to our principals.

We know that additional finish layers make a difference to how our instruments sound. I'm not saying that's necessarily a negative difference, but the difference is certainly there. We spend a lot of time crafting instruments that are highly resonant, & with highly resonant instruments, it makes a difference. Sure, if you use thick ply shells, or hang half a ton of hardware on your shells, then a wrap or heavy poly coat won't affect performance. What makes me laugh is that many builders who claim they make highly resonant drums, are the same builders who claim a wrap doesn't affect the sound of their instruments. That's BS, pure & simple. You can't have it both ways. To those builders who doubt the correlation, I say this - what would happen if you wrapped an acoustic guitar? --- exactly! I'm not saying low resonance drums are a bad thing, quite the reverse actually, it's a totally valid approach to the instrument.

Anyhow, the moment we give in to fashion, or try to please the widest possible demographic, we're screwed. If customers place stage aesthetics high up their list of priorities, then there's a whole world of builders out there, both large & small, that will be only too pleased to satisfy their requirement. We concentrate on the sound of the instrument. The aesthetic is important to us too, but absolutely secondary to the performance of the instrument. In our case, that means putting nothing on the wood other than a very thin sealing coat of shellac & finishing with buffed layers of hard wax. We don't stain, simply because we believe in celebrating the beauty of the wood, & as we go to great lengths to select our woods, it's nice to put that care & attention on display.

We're missing out on a large section of drum buyers, we know that, but watering down our own principals is just something we're not prepared to do.
 
Huge fan of natural wood myself. Frankly, the opinion of a bunch of bass players doesn't really affect my line of thinking ; )

Ever since I was a young drummer I felt that wrapping a resonating shell in a thick plastic coating was a questionable practice. I personally believe that the drum resonates most when the wood it was built from can vibrate freely.

I also love the appearance of the wood finish. It reminds me of the craftsmanship of fine furniture and art. I have a set of Gretsch Renown in Autumn Burst and they look beautiful.

Having said that I agree with the OP that a flashy wrap does look great on stage. While my Renowns will never leave the studio I have a second kit for gigs which is wrapped. It's white.

Too flashy?
 
It's a good point you make about a lot of custom builders make a big play on their finishes. There's plenty of choice in that market. Clearly you have thought about this and made your choice. The talkbass thread is brilliant because just about every finish is disliked by someone.

So you can't please all the people all the time!!!

Davo
 
Put mesh heads, or mutes, on a natural vs. wrapped kit and tell me the difference. Or put both kits on stage in a night club with amplified guitars and basses and a drunk screaming crowd and tell me the difference. From my perspective, it's a moot point.
 
It depends on the musical setting.

My rule of thumb: If the musicians are wearing sparkly stuff, then the drums should, too.

If it's rock, pop, funk or dance music we're talking about, then I prefer a flashier look from the drums. Rock and roll has a gaudy, ostentatious side that I think is best served by a little bling from the drums. A set of natural finish drums would look too much like old furniture next to a Jagger, Plant or David Lee Roth.

For jazz, I think you can go with any finish, natural or wrap. And in the studio, of course, it doesn't matter.
 
While this thread is interesting, i'm just curious as to everyones connotation of stains and laquers.

For example Flareless made a comment to his Renowns in Autumn Burst, would you call that natural? While the middle of the shells does seem to represent much of the true coloration of the wood and the grain, i would not call that finish natural.

I personally think a nice grain peaking through a stain is lovely and definitely what i would be looking for if i was in the market.

For snares though i can go full natural. I was dying to ask you about that purpleheart you had at Jobeky, KIS, but unfortunately it was not quite in my budget at the time.
 
Put mesh heads, or mutes, on a natural vs. wrapped kit and tell me the difference. Or put both kits on stage in a night club with amplified guitars and basses and a drunk screaming crowd and tell me the difference. From my perspective, it's a moot point.
Agreed. I wasn't pushing our take to apply universally, just explaining the reasons behind why we don't go for wraps or heavy poly coats, etc. Whether there's a difference or not depends on the performance context, & to a large extent, the drums themselves. I'd say on 90%+ of drums, the finish makes little to no difference. On ours, it certainly does, & unless you've played our drums, or other drums that are highly resonant, you don't have a reference point.

While this thread is interesting, i'm just curious as to everyones connotation of stains and laquers.

For example Flareless made a comment to his Renowns in Autumn Burst, would you call that natural? While the middle of the shells does seem to represent much of the true coloration of the wood and the grain, i would not call that finish natural.

I personally think a nice grain peaking through a stain is lovely and definitely what i would be looking for if i was in the market.

For snares though i can go full natural. I was dying to ask you about that purpleheart you had at Jobeky, KIS, but unfortunately it was not quite in my budget at the time.
To us, natural means exactly that - unaltered in appearance. Now I love some of the stain/burst/lacquer finishes, they just don't sit well with what we do.

As for the purpleheart snare BTW, it's one of only two ex demo reduced ones still left available from the sale. No idea why, I expected that to be one of the very first to sell, especially at that price :)
 
Huh...the only kits (2) that I have ever had were wrapped, but they've both been budget kits too. It's a 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder' thing, I think.

While I definitely agree with 8mile to an extent...I also think that there are more things than just the drum finish that can add a bit of color and 'sparkle' to the kit when on stage. I would personally be very happy with a natural kit (that I really liked) in any setting. Maybe having an eye-catching reso head on the kick would add that bit of Rock n Roll, and maybe some flashier clothes, and a more exuberant stage presence.

While lightning may strike, I doubt that my sound would ever be under such scrutiny that the tonal difference would ever make a difference to anyone but me...that being said, I still yearn for a top quality kit, and will make that purchase within the next couple of years if all goes right...and I will be looking for wood-grain...
 
As far as natural finishes not being popular, sure that's just speculation and a small sample size of opinions from non-drummers. I love a natural finish kit, not that I have one..yet. Ringo thermogloss late 60s Ludwig kit has always been a sought after and Ludwig reintroduced it this year. If it was good enough for a London rooftop in January 1969...
 
I love natural style finishes.

I want to see the wood grain!

Granted, I'd like a small kit in a wrap just to have something I can toss in the car and not worry about. But my main kit had best have some wood grain!
 
I haven't owned a wrapped drum since about 1985. I love the look of natural wood on an instrument.
 
I like, and have owned, both kinds of finishes.

The resonance part of this discussion is interesting to me. It seems necessary to me to distinguish between resonance as a component or quality of the sound produced, and resonance as measured in sustain. My wrapped Ludwigs produce more than enough warm, pure, sustained tone for virtually any normal use. Guru drums (from the samples I have heard) produce no more sustain, but incorporate more shell resonance in their overall sound. A different QUALITY of sound, if you will.

I think those makers who say the wrap doesn't affect resonance are probably referring to the fact that a ply shell produces just about as much sustain whether wrapped or unwrapped. This has been my experience, without having any sophisticated measuring equipment to rely on.

Different strokes for different folks, and different sounds for different applications.
 
Sort of related and directed at Andy...wrapped vs lacquer....colored lacquer with the necessary clear coat on top..Andy a drum with many coats of lacquer and clear, would the inhibiting of natural resonance be pretty much the same with a lacquer as a wrap? I mean after all the necessary coats of lacquer and clear, it would seem to me that the lacquer would inhibit resonance about as much as a wrap. Is this accurate IYO?

In my mind, a stain would not inhibit resonance, nor would a wax,. But lacquer and clear coats dry hard and are not very flexible as far as I know. So I would think that lacquer would inhibit natural vibration as much as a wrap. Thoughts?

Back on topic, I disagree with the premise that natural finishes are not very popular. I think just as many people like natural finishes as not. It doesn't matter what anyone else likes anyway. I don't go for a finish because random person A likes it, I go for a finish because I like it.

If the audience is focusing on a drums finish over the drummer...Hopefully the drummer is the center of attention, not the finish, right?

You can't please everybody, so you might as well please yourself as far as finish goes.
 
8Mile;1138202 A set of natural finish drums would look too much like old furniture next to a Jagger said:
Interesting choice of examples - hasn't Charlie Watts used a natural finished Gretsch kit nearly forever? lol He doesn't even use a logo or graphic of any kind on the bass drum head.
 
Sort of related and directed at Andy...wrapped vs lacquer....colored lacquer with the necessary clear coat on top..Andy a drum with many coats of lacquer and clear, would the inhibiting of natural resonance be pretty much the same with a lacquer as a wrap? I mean after all the necessary coats of lacquer and clear, it would seem to me that the lacquer would inhibit resonance about as much as a wrap. Is this accurate IYO?

In my mind, a stain would not inhibit resonance, nor would a wax,. But lacquer and clear coats dry hard and are not very flexible as far as I know. So I would think that lacquer would inhibit natural vibration as much as a wrap. Thoughts?

Back on topic, I disagree with the premise that natural finishes are not very popular. I think just as many people like natural finishes as not. It doesn't matter what anyone else likes anyway. I don't go for a finish because random person A likes it, I go for a finish because I like it.

If the audience is focusing on a drums finish over the drummer...Hopefully the drummer is the center of attention, not the finish, right?

You can't please everybody, so you might as well please yourself as far as finish goes.

Taking this a bit further Larry, I wonder if the application of multiple coats of lacquer actually enhances resonance by making the shell more rigid, or at least modifies the resonance rather than necessarily killing it. The supernova burst finish on my kit is so thick and shiny that I think it looks like a wrap more than some wraps do, but surely the lacquer filling in the grain and hardening the wood shell must have an impact on sound too, however subtle it is. A wrap is different, unless it's like a DW finish ply which is an integral part of the shell. The less well a wrap is stuck to the shell, the more opportunities there would be for air gaps killing the resonance. Having said that, I played wrapped kits for years and never thought they sounded that bad either. And the wraps are generally more resistant to damage than lacquered or waxed shells too.

For what it's worth, I like both natural and more out there finishes. I did the natural thing with my last kit and ended up wanting something with a bit more visual impact. I may well go the opposite way if I decide to trade up again. The only finish I wouldn't consider is plain black, just because I think it says I couldn't be bothered to choose anything else. But that's only my opinion...
 
Interesting choice of examples - hasn't Charlie Watts used a natural finished Gretsch kit nearly forever? lol He doesn't even use a logo or graphic of any kind on the bass drum head.

Yes that is correct; I owned the same kit with an 18" bass drum and 14" floor. They always looked great in any situation. I have heard some pro's say they prefer white or black simply because the light looks good on them. I have always liked natural but I have a soft spot for the pink champagne Ludwig’s I once owned back in the day.
 
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