Biggest problem with a sub, or new band member?

bermuda

Drummerworld Pro Drummer - Administrator
Staff member
When there are performance problems with a player new to a band's set - whether it's you or someone else in the band - which issue is the bigger problem?

a) Not knowing the arrangements.

b) Not knowing the parts.


Granted, they are both problems easily solved with personal preparation or rehearsal, but when there's an obvious train-wreck, which event caused it?

Alcohol/drug use and personal issues are not included, those are different problems and often manifest themselves beyond the bandstand.

Bermuda
 
I'm assuming what you are asking about all members of a band, not just drummers.

Here is what I think you are asking:

a) Not knowing how the songs are arranged, as in the starts, stops, breaks and length of verses etc..
b) Not knowing exactly what notes, chords, beats, fills and sounds to play.

If I have your meaning correct, I would say (a) is the biggest problem.
Most songs follow a typical chord pattern. If I were new to a band I could easily figure out what to play in terms of chords, drum rhythms, sounds and drum fills. But counting off the songs, the song endings, patterns and breaks would be harder to pick up on the fly.

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In terms of trainwrecks, I'd say not knowing the arrangement is the bigger issue since changing too soon (or too late) can throw everyone else off.

But in terms of general annoyance, not knowing the parts is pretty frustrating, especially if it's a guitar player thinking his/her wizard solo is an acceptable substitute.
 
Those problems seem pretty close to equal in severity. If pressed I'd pick #2 as the bigger issue.

A good listener ...who has the ability to react quickly.... even if they didn't know the parts or the arrangement...should be able to get through the song satisfactorily. (assuming nothing too wacky) That's what open mic jams do for you. Many times, you are flying by the seat of your pants and forced to rely on your ears and eyes alone. Invaluable experience for the bandstand.
 
I posed the question initially more from a drummer's standpoint, where I believe that arrangement flubs are more obvious, and therefore a bigger problem, than the drum part itself. That is, playing through a stop, or not starting or ending in a tight manner, is more obvious to the average listener than whether the drum part is correct or not.

But a melodic instrument may play the right arrangement, but hit the wrong notes/chords, and the resulting cacophony is very evident.

So for a drummer, I'd say that learning a group's repertoire requires tackling arrangements first, parts second. And for guitar, bass, keys or vocals, learning the parts is the priority.

Of course, we should strive to nail everything, but if I had a choice, I'd rather play an incorrect beat than play through a stop or hit a punch in the wrong place.

Bermuda
 
Not me. I'd rather cruise through a stop than play the wrong beat/feel for a song. Cruising through a stop is pretty minor on the list of things to do wrong IMO. As long as the time doesn't screw up, only musicians would know. Wrong tempo and/or wrong beat would bug me more.
 
Not me. I'd rather cruise through a stop than play the wrong beat/feel for a song. Cruising through a stop is pretty minor on the list of things to do wrong IMO. As long as the time doesn't screw up, only musicians would know. Wrong tempo and/or wrong beat would bug me more.

Right, but what about switching to the next part or anticipating a next part where there isn't one. If you're doing an A-B-B-A-B thing and he does A-B-A-B, that's not going to be easy to pick up and make sound good!
 
I've seen several subs trainwreck before. You've got to know the PARTS, first and foremost. If you don't play a part that the rest of the band is comfortable with (not necessarily the original, but something that feels good to the rest of the band), then the whole song is basically a trainwreck. If you miss a punch/hit/catch/cue, chalk it up to being the sub and move on--it happens, and the expectation that it won't is what causes people to be upset. Subs/new members I WANT to play with are the ones that brush it off as if nothing happened but catch it next time.

Get your head in the game in the moment. That covers a multitude of musical sins.
 
Right, but what about switching to the next part or anticipating a next part where there isn't one. If you're doing an A-B-B-A-B thing and he does A-B-A-B, that's not going to be easy to pick up and make sound good!

I have to disrespectfully disagree. I mean respectfully lol. If I know the parts, since I don't know the arrangement, I wouldn't know it's wrong, right? You are forgetting you don't know the arrangement. The parts are more essential than the arrangement of them. If I don't know the arrangement, I'm on my toes in an attempt to figure it out just as fast as I can. Kind of a strange question, if you know the parts, knowing the arrangement is part of knowing the parts IMO.

So we're talking about something that really shouldn't happen that much.
 
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I'm going to supply a sort of "new to live playing" answer here. I have had a few chances to play with new people over the last few weeks - Yesterday being the latest.

The biggest problem I had yesterday is that EVERY song the band played I had never played before. Many of the songs I knew because I have heard them before but also, many of the set list I had never heard before.

I hope that made sense. :)

Anyway, If I do say so myself, I kicked ass!! Yes, there were some mistakes made but nothing that impaired the band or slowed the music. I went into this situation totally cold. I didn't have a clue to what would be played so I was not prepared. But, I jammed with these guys for 2 solid hours.

It was so weird - at one point, the singer told me to count it off for the next song. I didn't even know what they were going to play!! 1, 2, 3, 4 - hit the crash and off we went. Total playing by the seat of my pants!

So for me, not knowing the arrangement is the hardest. You can pick up where certain parts belong by listening to what's being played and watching for visual clues from other band members - especially the guitarist and singer - they're always telegraphing what's coming up next.
 
I have to disrespectfully disagree. I mean respectfully lol. If I know the parts, since I don't know the arrangement, I wouldn't know it's wrong, right? You are forgetting you don't know the arrangement. The parts are more essential than the arrangement of them. If I don't know the arrangement, I'm on my toes in an attempt to figure it out just as fast as I can. Kind of a strange question, if you know the parts, knowing the arrangement is part of knowing the parts IMO.

So we're talking about something that really shouldn't happen that much.

Interesting. I think Bermuda has posed a question that will not have a unanimous answer. It depends on the player. And of course, I'm talking from a drummer's perspective. At any rate, for me, if I know the landscape of something, I'm infinitely more comfortable. I've listened to so many different kinds of music and have a relatively creative mind, so coming up with parts that fit to any different thing I might hear is kind of my second nature.

I'm just the kind of guy who can't stand it when I miss a part of the landscape, or it grates against what the other players are doing. Much of the enjoyment I get from music is from paying attention to the arrangement of the song from 10,000 feet, if you will. Everyone being tuned into the macro is more pleasing that focusing too much on the micro. Also, if I'm playing something on the fly, I can get the parts within a bar or so as they're being played, but the only time I'll know the arrangement is by the time the song's over or nearly over. Exception being the classic western music structures, of course. I mean, the blues, or older country, for example, are really easy to just feel where things are going to happen. The rhythms progress and build in similar ways through the genre.

I'm rambling, but essentially, I think this answer is really going to depend on the drummer.
 
When there are performance problems with a player new to a band's set - whether it's you or someone else in the band - which issue is the bigger problem?


I'd go with the parts.

If you don't know the parts, the arrangement aint gonna do ya much good :)
 
I'm rambling, but essentially, I think this answer is really going to depend on the drummer.

It also depends on the instrument you're playing, and who is subbing. I find that subbing as a drummer is the easiest of the duties. *Usually* there is another player (usually the bass or guitar player) that will give you a heads' up for cues you're supposed to catch. Having a drummer sub for the group (when I'm playing bass, guitar, or vibes) is among the most stressful things, especially when you don't know them and how well their ears are developed.

Depending on the gig, though, I would have to mention that subbing on the bass is pretty easy as well. The bass part that you mess up can always be "covered over" by adding a few more notes after it. One of the hippest lines I ever played was when I didn't catch a second ending on the chart and I modulated up a whole step early, which I quickly turned into a whole tone scale and landed on the next root on "one." The keyboard player knew EXACTLY what happened, and went out of his way to compliment that little patch up. Fun times. I love subbing work with minimal/no rehearsing--you're constantly on your toes!
 
Your question is a bit confusing... It's like saying what's a bigger problem:

A) Having a puzzle but no picture

B) A picture but no puzzle pieces

Both problems happen equally as often IMO, I've had times where I've been dropped into a song or band with no idea what the song is and had to deal with both problems at once.

As a drummer in a metal band I have to constantly on my toes when me and my guitarist improvise songs for fun and writing purposes. We usually record ourselves and pick out the parts we like so I get to hear how long it takes for me to sync up with what he's playing. Typically need only 1 or 2 bars, maybe less to catch on to what he's playing and have a drum groove that suits. I honestly shock myself sometimes with how fast my mind adjusts to the new part that comes up.

So I guess if I had to answer what's worse for me... it's not knowing the arrangement for a popular song. Since I can adapt fairly quickly to what the bass player and guitar player(s) are playing to get a groove going, but things like stops or shots will always stick out more if the drummer doesn't stop or hit them at the right time.
 
my thought is b) Not knowing the parts. we get a lots of sub in the 10 piece horn band i play in. LOTS of 70s stuff (read: tower of power) w/ about 70% original arrangements. my feel is if they player has the style / parts down...then they can quickly get back on track if they get off-track in the arrangement. for ex, if it is a guitar player...me & the bass player are going to hear this and yell out changes or section number "WE'RE ON "E" NOW...".
 
For me, i'm a seasoned open mic nite vet. I can feel out the part to play by what rhythm is being played, but the arrangements can get me, if there are tempo changes and starts and stops in weird places. Plus lucky for me nobody throws me a complex tune and expects me to nail it any ways. Who does that? "On the last bar of Temple of Syrinx you flubbed the Neil Peart odd time triplet rolls.. how dare you!!"
I can fake a rhythm or feel that will work for a tune I don't know and no one will grill me for it, But say if the tempo and feel changed a bit and still doing the soft verse rim click while the guitarist slams out the heavy chorus that needs a washy cymbal.. and I didn't catch that change.. hmm. That would bug me.
 
For me, i'm a seasoned open mic nite vet. I can feel out the part to play by what rhythm is being played, but the arrangements can get me, if there are tempo changes and starts and stops in weird places. Plus lucky for me nobody throws me a complex tune and expects me to nail it any ways. Who does that? "On the last bar of Temple of Syrinx you flubbed the Neil Peart odd time triplet rolls.. how dare you!!"
I can fake a rhythm or feel that will work for a tune I don't know and no one will grill me for it, But say if the tempo and feel changed a bit and still doing the soft verse rim click while the guitarist slams out the heavy chorus that needs a washy cymbal.. and I didn't catch that change.. hmm. That would bug me.

Open mic nights/ drop in jams are pretty scary when you're playing outside of a genre you know, flying by the seat of your pants, but that's half the fun of it is it not?

I think we can all agree that sudden stops, odd timed shots and time signature changes are something we just don't have time to react to without prior knowledge. The only hope is to catch it the second time, assuming that it even repeats!
 
As a sub I always try and get the arrangement down ASAP then worry about the actual parts the original drummer plays later because you can always fake it and make it sound good as long as you know when the tempos change or when the chorus is coming, blah blah blah.

I've been told the band is playing a song I've never played before right before we're about to play it live at a show in front of hundreds of people. It's nerve-racking. But I take it as a challenge and follow along. Instinct takes over and you kinda can get a feel for when the song is going somewhere different...unless it's a crazy Proggy Rock song haha... But as drummers we're "listeners" too. We gotta listen and stay sharp.
 
Open mic nights/ drop in jams are pretty scary when you're playing outside of a genre you know, flying by the seat of your pants, but that's half the fun of it is it not?

That's why it's important to learn, listen and understand as many types of music as you can. It's a way of being prepared without knowing what's coming. Kind of like studying an entire math book, because you're going to be tested on one chapter, but you don't know which one.

Getting out of our musical comfort zones is an amazing thing.
 
I worry about the arrangement first then the parts. The arrangement defines the style of the band and the tune itself. As drummers, we have a little more leeway with the particular parts we are playing. I have rarely been given a chart that contained the exact drum part but the arrangement is highly notated.
 
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