Does anyone else have this double bass issue?

MikeCottonDrums

Junior Member
There is basically a gap in my double bass SOMETIMES. Its sort of hard to explain. but Ill categorize what happens into 3 general tempo areas (16th notes single strokes).

slow(100-135bpm)- I can pretty much nail this tempo range whenever, with lots of power, and it feels quite easy

medium- (135-180 bpm)- its extremely hit or miss in this range. sometimes i can easily pull this off, and sometimes i cant get it going at all. It sort of feels like i cant get the double bass to get started and my ankles lock up or something.

fast (180-220 ish)- once i warm up, and get my ankles moving I can do this well and it gives a great burn in my calves. The only thing is is I generally cant start/stop this speed range on command, I sort of have to get it to start awkwardly, kind of like when you have to release the clutch slowly in a manual car.

Has anyone else had similar experiences to this?
 
Re: Does anyone else have this double bass issue? mid tempos

The answer is: YES! It's quite normal.

If you use the "search" function you'll find a lot of threads dealing with this topic.

The main reason is that slow tempos are simply easy enough for any issues to occur while at higher tempos one can utilize the pedal rebound. Now the mid tempos are the hardest to learn. The specific range depends, for me it's around 150-190 bpm.

What helps me is using ankle motion for 190+ and (because I haven't acquired enough control yet to do it any other way - except I'm using heel-toe/doubles) doing full leg motion/flat foot (single strokes) below that. So the motions are different depending on the speed.

I had a quick start with heel up/fast singles, got into the 200 bpm range pretty quickly (ankle motion). But still working on the mid-tempo area...
 
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The reason you can't play those speeds is because you are practicing incorrectly.

If you practice a double bass pattern RLRLRLRL at 135BPM and do it exactly like you would "play" it then in one month you will be able to play it at 140 maybe.

The problem is when you play 160 BPM or below you have time to stop the beater an inch or so off the head. This technique will not transfer over to faster playing because when you play fast you are just letting the beater bounce back all the way and then play the next stroke. It's a different motion.

You need to practice bouncing the beater like a basketball even at slow speeds. Both beaters should bounce back freely at 130BPM even if this feels really uncomfortable. Get control over this and you will have a technique that "transfers" into faster playing. Do not be in the way of the pedal as it bounces back, follow along with it with your foot. Try to use a lot of ankles as well.

I'm not saying you should play like this. I'm saying that you should practice like this.

Especially heels down. It's hard, really hard. Even harder than playing the same thing fast but if you can practice the same motion you do when playing fast but at a slower tempo then this should transfer over when you speed it up. The advantage of practicing slower is that you can hear if it's accurate.
 
The reason you can't play those speeds is because you are practicing incorrectly.

If you practice a double bass pattern RLRLRLRL at 135BPM and do it exactly like you would "play" it then in one month you will be able to play it at 140 maybe.

The problem is when you play 160 BPM or below you have time to stop the beater an inch or so off the head. This technique will not transfer over to faster playing because when you play fast you are just letting the beater bounce back all the way and then play the next stroke. It's a different motion.

You need to practice bouncing the beater like a basketball even at slow speeds. Both beaters should bounce back freely at 130BPM even if this feels really uncomfortable. Get control over this and you will have a technique that "transfers" into faster playing. Do not be in the way of the pedal as it bounces back, follow along with it with your foot. Try to use a lot of ankles as well.

I'm not saying you should play like this. I'm saying that you should practice like this.

Especially heels down. It's hard, really hard. Even harder than playing the same thing fast but if you can practice the same motion you do when playing fast but at a slower tempo then this should transfer over when you speed it up. The advantage of practicing slower is that you can hear if it's accurate.

Interesting, Mike Mangini told me a similar thing at one lesson:
Practice slowly the way you play fast.

He does not advocate practicing heel down as the fast double bass guys pretty much all go heel up. The number of muscles recruited is so much greater, thus allowing for more eventual speed, power, control and endurance.
 
Interesting, Mike Mangini told me a similar thing at one lesson:
Practice slowly the way you play fast.

He does not advocate practicing heel down as the fast double bass guys pretty much all go heel up. The number of muscles recruited is so much greater, thus allowing for more eventual speed, power, control and endurance.

The way you practice and the way you play are two different things. The reason you practice playing heels down is because even though you play heel up you are basically only using the ankles at really fast speeds.

However "just" practicing heels down is not the whole story. You still have to imagine how you would do it fast.
 
i think some of this stuff depends on your body really and what it can do.
for instance i weigh like 300 pounds (my calves are mini trees) so playing heel down is really natural, i don't get any loss of power either. my strokes are more even because playing heel down gives me better balance and i don't "dig" in to the drum head. instead i just let the beater rebound.
i know what the OP is talking about when he says "awkward, stop start", i had the same problem too years ago. so i dropped that technique entirely and started over again.


thin people have george kollias & roddy, i have gene hoglan, nicholas barker & eric moore. different bodyshapes entirely.

massive edit; check out inferno's technique, it's a flatfoot method, and i remember roddy talking about this method on his forum too. it's not traditional heel down, but it's certainly not heel up.
 
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He does not advocate practicing heel down as the fast double bass guys pretty much all go heel up. The number of muscles recruited is so much greater, thus allowing for more eventual speed, power, control and endurance.
He also recommends practicing heel up (in a demo video on the C&C system) because this provides way more physical action/feel to actually perceive the motions so there would be a stronger cohesion between the physical motions and the mental aspect (counting rhythms). Heel up includes more muscle groups, more muscle mass, and - as already mentioned - that different balance perception (as opposed to heel down where balance is no issue) - that's exactly what makes it a more intense playing _and_ practice experience. Makes sense to me.
The way you practice and the way you play are two different things. The reason you practice playing heels down is because even though you play heel up you are basically only using the ankles at really fast speeds.

However "just" practicing heels down is not the whole story. You still have to imagine how you would do it fast.
I pretty much neglected heel down but heel up/ankle motion is working great. Did I miss something? If you want/need to get good at ankle motion you _don't_ need to spend time on heel down. Focus on practicing what you need instead of some side stuff. Not saying heel down is bad but when you need A why practice B?
 
He also recommends practicing heel up (in a demo video on the C&C system) because this provides way more physical action/feel to actually perceive the motions so there would be a stronger cohesion between the physical motions and the mental aspect (counting rhythms). Heel up includes more muscle groups, more muscle mass, and - as already mentioned - that different balance perception (as opposed to heel down where balance is no issue) - that's exactly what makes it a more intense playing _and_ practice experience. Makes sense to me.
I pretty much neglected heel down but heel up/ankle motion is working great. Did I miss something? If you want/need to get good at ankle motion you _don't_ need to spend time on heel down. Focus on practicing what you need instead of some side stuff. Not saying heel down is bad but when you need A why practice B?

Because working on stuff like playing stick control heels down is going to build control like crazy. You need way more control to play heels down, anything that is hard to play now will be benefitial to your control.

For instance if you have problems with your feet getting out of sync with your hands you can just practice playing a double bass rlrlrlrl beat until they in sync.

A better way to do it is to practice playing a paradiddle with your feet as eigth notes and at the same time play a paradiddle with your hands as 16th notes an then do the opposite and switch between those. Also play everything as full strokes which means the hands start at a 90 degree angle and end at the same starting position. The bass pedals have to rebound all the way back as well. You may want to practice this at work or at school tapping your feet and hands on your knees first so you get the basic coordination first to save valuable kit time ;)

If you can do this then keeping your hands in sync with your feet will be a childs play when playing double bass.
 
I sometimes have the same issue with the middle speeds, only difference is I can do them no problem heel down just not heel up. A friend of mine who used to play drums came over my house and was doing some heel up double bass around those tempos like it was nothing. It really pissed me off that he doesn't even practice and could do it, but I couldn't. So I just got down on the kit (really frustrated) and somehow was able to pull it off! Sometimes it just takes a good kick in the ass lol. Try to watch someone else play (in person) and pick up on what they do. I learned from watching him that the trick at those middle speeds is don't use your ankles like on the 200+ bpm, just use legs but go really fast. It helps if you have a lot of energy at the time haha
 
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