Gretsch Renown...unfair to call it "mid-level"?

FWIW, I have been to, surveyed, and audited several factories in mainland China, Hong Kong, the coastal zone of Shenzen, Malayasia, Singapore and Indonesia. It took a few times to get over the expectation of finding downtroden laborers being whipped to produce more and more. The reality is that they are mostly 20 somethings faced with the option of staying on the family farm, bent over in a rice paddy or behind the family ox, or: working in a nice clean factory, living in nice new dorm buildings with others like them, wearing clean new western clothes, having cell phones and ipods and PS3's in their rooms, a choice or resturants in the company compound, ect... Kind of like what happened during the industrial revolution in the US. These youngsters are having a great time. And they know that there are many back on the farm who are far less fortunate. So rather than being downtrodden, they are living the "get ahead" dream. But they also know that if they screw up, don't make things right, there is a line standing outside the company gate of folks just waiting for their chance to live that life.

And, anyone selling product into the EU (which most of these factories are) has to meet the same ISO environmental standards as a factory in California. So the image of it being cheaper because they are poluting everything is also a fallacy.

Thanks for that! I produce sails from cloth made in the USA and finished in China. In fact my company started in Hong Kong and moved to the US in the 80's. The loft workers are very happy, highly skilled people. The facility is modern and spotless. I will say though that some of the larger cities and bodies of water are not at all pollution free. I also work with boat manufacturers over there and where we in the US would be wearing respirators they seem to be using only dust masks. It's a game of catch up though and they are moving in the right direction.
Oh..sorry for the hijack.
 
On Tuesday, I sent the following email to [email protected].
"How many ply’s are maple are in the Renown toms and bass drums?

What are the shell differences between the Renown and USA Custom series?

Thank you."



On Wednesday, I received this reply:
"Jack,
Thanks for your email.
Though many of the specs are the same for each series drum, there are differences that make the two uniquely distinctive. USA Custom Series drums are built in the USA to our exacting specifications. The Gretsch USA maple shell is the same formula we have been using for over 50 years. Each step of the shell finishing process is done by hand by highly-skilled drum-making artisans: Bearing edges, sanding, drilling, lacquering (or wrap) are all completed one drum at a time. The result is a drum that is carefully hand finished and defines "That Great Gretsch Sound." The Renown series drums do offer many features of the USA Custom drums, as you described in your email. They are also carefully built to our specifications. Though the shells for each series are 6-ply maple, their exact formulas are slightly different. In addition Renown series drums use automated machinery in much of the finish process. This process is carefully scrutinized every step of the way - quality control is excellent - but they do not go through the rigorous finishing process that we apply to the USA Custom series. The drum hardware (hoops, lugs, tom holders, etc) used by each series are very similar though there is a difference between the bass drum claw hooks. Specs are an indicator of any drum's quality and tonal identity, but they only part of the picture. We encourage you to visit your local Gretsch dealer to compare a USA Custom and Renown kit side by side to hear the true tonal characteristics of each series.
Regards,
Gretsch Drums"

As soon as I received the email above, I sent the additional email below to which I have not received a response.

"Thank you for the follow up.

I own a 6 piece Renown currently, but am getting the fever to add a new kit, and I am extremely pleased with Gretsch's quality. Even though I live in the DC area, I have never seen a USA Custom kit at any of the Guitar Center stores or smaller shops that I frequent.

What do you mean by: "Though the shells for each series are 6-ply maple, their exact formulas are slightly different"
If the shells are the same, how are they different? -- If the shells are both 6 ply maple, how are they different?
Does that mean the shells ply's may be thicker in the Renowns and thinner in the USA Customs? Or Vice Versa?

I apologize if I sound dense, I'm just trying to figure out what I would be getting with a new drum purchase. I currently have 6 kits, so I consider myself a pretty serious buyer of drums.

Thank you."


--- Since they answered the 1st email within 1 day, and it has now been 48 hours since I sent the 2nd one, I am assuming I am not going to hear back from them with answers to my direct questions. But, if they do respond I will certainly post it here.
 
I think it's fair to call Renowns a Gretsch mid-level kit. That's what they are. The USA customs are the top, then Renown, then Catalina at the bottom.

USA Custom

Renown -----------------> this is the middle

Catalina
 
I think it's fair to call Renowns a Gretsch mid-level kit. That's what they are. The USA customs are the top, then Renown, then Catalina at the bottom.

USA Custom

Renown -----------------> this is the middle

Catalina

You're basically correct, but it goes something like this.

USA Customs

New Classics

Renowns

The Catalina Series - Maple, Birch, Ash, Catalina Club Jazz, Catalina Club Mod, and the Catalina Club Rock

Blackhawk

These are fairly current, except I'm not quite sure they're still manufacturing the Catalina Ash. I bought the Gretsch Renown kit over a year ago but I didn't buy it because I thought it was a "pro" kit, I bought it because it sounded and looked like a pro kit. When I directly compared the Renowns to the USA Customs they sounded remarkably similar. Definitely not a $3000 to $4000 difference in sound or quality.

DSC_0190.jpg


Dennis
 
I think it's fair to call Renowns a Gretsch mid-level kit. That's what they are. The USA customs are the top, then Renown, then Catalina at the bottom.

USA Custom

Renown -----------------> this is the middle

Catalina

While your logic is true, it doesn't make sense for your conclusion.

Pearl, Yamaha, and Tama all make more than one pro line. DW offers multiple shell options for their pro lines. But no one considers their other pro-lines "mid level."

Further, the Renouns appear to be made the same way as many top of the line pro kits have been made over the years by other manufactures. If they're made the same as other pro kits, why call it mid level when it's equivalent to other pro kits?
 
What do you mean by: "Though the shells for each series are 6-ply maple, their exact formulas are slightly different"
If the shells are the same, how are they different? -- If the shells are both 6 ply maple, how are they different?
Does that mean the shells ply's may be thicker in the Renowns and thinner in the USA Customs? Or Vice Versa?



--- Since they answered the 1st email within 1 day, and it has now been 48 hours since I sent the 2nd one, I am assuming I am not going to hear back from them with answers to my direct questions. But, if they do respond I will certainly post it here.

Gretch has always held their exact formula for their USA custom shells a secret.
The reality is they are not 100% all maple, but they're not about to disclose that, or disclose exactly what makes their shells unique.
Which may be why they haven't written you back the 2nd time, because it's a question they usually won't answer. At least under their old ownership.
 
Gretch has always held their exact formula for their USA custom shells a secret.
The reality is they are not 100% all maple, but they're not about to disclose that, or disclose exactly what makes their shells unique.
Which may be why they haven't written you back the 2nd time, because it's a question they usually won't answer. At least under their old ownership.

They certainly seem to hold their cards tighly, that's for sure.

I too, suspect they won't get back to me with more detail. Since they said both shells are 6 ply maple, but they mention the word "formula", I'm wondering if they're doing something different with the direction of some ply's or possibly thickness.
 
It's been a week since I sent off my original email to Gretsch to which they responded the next day. Tomorrow will be a week since I sent my 2nd email to which they have not responded. I assume it is safe to say they aren't giving out more specific info.

It's their company and they can do what they want. But, I can't see any reason to spring for a USA Custom if they can't give me specfic info on what I would really be getting that is any different than what I already have in a Renown kit.
 
6 ply could me any thickness at all. All plies are not 1mm. So the drums could be 6 ply 6mm or 6 ply 9mm. I emailed them some comments from this forum about their proprietary formula and got no reponse either. I would think a short buzz off would suffice but not even that.
 
I own a set of Renown toms, which I mated to a 70's era Gretsch kick drum as a "beater" set. I don't have a USA Custom kit to compare them to, but here are some thoughts on their own. I am sure some will be unpopular.

1 - First, I don't really know what you guys consider "pro" drums. Not sure what the criteria is. I've seen guys touring the country playing Pearl Export kits, so "pro" is mostly a state of mind, not a quality of drum. I would say that a quality you want is "reliable" and/or "dependable" in terms of construction, durability and maintenance.

2 - the sound of the drums, which is what really matters, is very good. I used mine on a gig last week and they really sounded fantastic, as good as anything else I've used in that room, which includes my Sonor Designer kit.

3 - the finish is good, but not the best I've seen. If you are buying drums for the finish, which IMO is silly, you can do better. again - not bad, but not amazing and certainly other companies have a wider selection.

4 - the hardware is solid and the drums are well constructed. Edges are good, hoops are good, chrome looks good and assembly is well done.

BUT - take the drums apart and rods have a feel of cheapness to me. the lugs rattle (plastic inserts) which you don't notice when drums are tuned up but it's a sign of cost cutting/lesser parts. I also felt as if they didn't really feel solid when tuning, almost as if the rods are ever so slightly undersized. My gut feeling, after 25 years of regular drumming on alot of different kits, is that these drums may be more likely to detune due to mechanical reasons. We shall see...

In short - these are really nice drums, and sound as good as anything else out there, especially for the $. But, compared to some other kits I've owned (Recording Custom, Pearl Masters, Sonor Designer to name a few), it's clear that they are lacking some in terms of fit and finish.

I'll keep using them around town as my beater kit, because they do sound great and have a nice, simple, classic look to them.
 
If they're made the same as other pro kits, why call it mid level when it's equivalent to other pro kits?

Semantics. I guess I think of a "professional" level kit as "top of the line".

Examples:
DW Collector's
Sonor SQ2
Yamaha PHX
Gretsch USA Custom

These kits are handmade from start to finish, with high quality hardware.
To me, that is where the line is drawn between "pro" and "mid level".
 
Semantics. I guess I think of a "professional" level kit as "top of the line".

Examples:
DW Collector's
Sonor SQ2
Yamaha PHX
Gretsch USA Custom

These kits are handmade from start to finish, with high quality hardware.
To me, that is where the line is drawn between "pro" and "mid level".

Agree mostly, but the shell finsih and the paint job on Renown is sually better than SQ2 or Gretsch custom. Renown is really a very well made drumkit, the difference betweeen it and what people so call high end drum isn't really that much different.
 
BUT - take the drums apart and rods have a feel of cheapness to me. the lugs rattle (plastic inserts) which you don't notice when drums are tuned up but it's a sign of cost cutting/lesser parts. I also felt as if they didn't really feel solid when tuning, almost as if the rods are ever so slightly undersized. My gut feeling, after 25 years of regular drumming on alot of different kits, is that these drums may be more likely to detune due to mechanical reasons. We shall see...

I agree w/ this. The tension rods feel really cheap, as do the lug inserts. I wondered what that rattling was - they used PLASTIC on the inside? I was under the impression that these were the exact same lugs used on USA Customs?

One thing that really turns me off is the hollowed-out wing-nuts that tighten the hardware. Even cheap-o manufacturers typically use die-cast parts for this, given how cheap it is to have stuff like this made in Asia. But again, is this not the same hardware as is used on the USA Custom line?

It seems strange that they'd use 12.7mm thick mounting hardware and ft legs but cut corners on small things. I suppose there's a calculated, economic explanation in the manufacturing cost.

I haven't been using my Renowns much but the week that I bought them, I used them for about 2 hrs. per night. No de-tuning. I set them aside for the past couple of weeks and have been playing my Classic Maple kit. Last night I got the Renowns back out and the toms were still tuned up perfectly. So far, so good.

I'm going to run them back through the gauntlet for a while and see how they hold up.
 
Not necessarily. People's offshore predjucies are showing. You would be amazed at how the economics of labor savings on certain skill sets offsets shipping costs in large volumes. This is what I do for a living, manufacturing engineering. While I personally think the economics are a fallacy, (the overhead support costs are rarely factored in, only the purchase price of the sub assembly) it has increasingly become the conventional wisdom. The higher the volumes, the more the numbers work out.

You would be amazed at the amount of traveling parts of cars, appliances and electronics make before ending up in a finished consumer item.

Exactly what Gretsch is doing on each of their product lines (except for the entry level that they are not afraid to admit) seems to be shrouded in mystery. Understandable for any company selling things that they are trying to maintain a quality reputation for given the hue and cry if some internet expert discovers that they are indeed not being handcrafted by elves in a secluded cottage somewhere in the Northeast United States (or a Bavarian forest) and decides to save everyone from themselves by announcing to the world that their cherished quality product has been transfered to some "3rd world" factory full of child slave labor.

FWIW, I have been to, surveyed, and audited several factories in mainland China, Hong Kong, the coastal zone of Shenzen, Malayasia, Singapore and Indonesia. It took a few times to get over the expectation of finding downtroden laborers being whipped to produce more and more. The reality is that they are mostly 20 somethings faced with the option of staying on the family farm, bent over in a rice paddy or behind the family ox, or: working in a nice clean factory, living in nice new dorm buildings with others like them, wearing clean new western clothes, having cell phones and ipods and PS3's in their rooms, a choice or resturants in the company compound, ect... Kind of like what happened during the industrial revolution in the US. These youngsters are having a great time. And they know that there are many back on the farm who are far less fortunate. So rather than being downtrodden, they are living the "get ahead" dream. But they also know that if they screw up, don't make things right, there is a line standing outside the company gate of folks just waiting for their chance to live that life.

And, anyone selling product into the EU (which most of these factories are) has to meet the same ISO environmental standards as a factory in California. So the image of it being cheaper because they are poluting everything is also a fallacy.

It comes down to cost of living transferring into labor rate, and the costs of the bricks and mortar. And many times you can ship things all over the planet to either get a specialist skill here and cheaper labor for mundane things there. Some formerly low cost areas like Singapore have increased their standard of living that they don't count as low cost centers anymore. But they do have a large base of talent, are are close to other low cost centers. So it becomes worthwhile to do some simple things in Vietnam or Indonesia, and then ship them to Singapore for higher skilled work. And then ship them to Japan for enough local labor content to write "Made in Japan" on the box, and then ship them to distributors and stores all over the world who want 'made in Japan' quality.

There are so many threads on different forums with varying opinions of what Gretsch is doing with the Renowns. What I wrote was a distallation of Gretsch videos, promotional material, and the forum posts that seemed to be from the most informed sources and make the most sense (given that I don't have any preconceptions about the "stupidity" of shipping things back and forth across the Pacific.

A, this was excellent, thanks so much for sharing. I'm a huge proponent of free market economics and it's heartwarming to hear these stories...small islands of truth in a sea of propaganda and anti-market rhetoric.
 
So I slapped some Evans G2 Coated over G1 clears on the toms, put the EQ4 and stock reso back on the kick, and put the coated G1 over a Hazy on the snare.

WOW...

These are without a doubt, some of the best drums I've heard yet. The toms sound huge and fat...very long, warm sustain. They're very sensitive and give back all the energy you can throw into them. The kick drum is killer but I have a feeling it'd be better if I replaced the Gretsch stock resonant head. It could still bring the roof down, as it is.

The snare is most impressive and sounded even better to me w/ Evans heads on it.

I wasn't as impressed when I had coated Ambassadors on the toms and snare. They tuned up much easier w/ the Evans heads and sound many times better.

I've had a lot of bad luck w/ Remo lately...getting bad heads that aren't tuning evenly and properly. The quality has been very inconsistent. I think I'll stick w/ Evans for a while, after this experience.
 
Same heads I'm using. G2 coated over G1 clear. Getting rid of the stock resos made a big difference. I also put an Evans EQ3 on the front of the kick. I think it's getting a bit more tone than the factory head, but it's hard to tell from behind.
 
Back
Top