Ludwig Supraphonic 402 New or Vintage?

Danishdrummer

Junior Member
Hey all. Im looking to buy a new snare and have my mind set on buying a 6.5X14 Supra.

Question is, is there much difference in sound when you compare the new models to the older 70´s snares?

Ive been looking frantically for a vintage one, but havent been able to find one in good enough condition yet. I havent tried playing one of the new 402´s so I have no idea if I would lose out if I buy one of those in place of an older model.

Anyone have experience with the new 402? (LM402).

I should be getting my new Sonor SQ2 5-piece maple kit in a couple of months, (its currently being constructed at the factory in Germany), so Im looking for a good snare to match it. Supra seems like a good pick :)


Any and all advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you :)
 
I’m not alone in thinking that the older, 1970’s, Supra-Phonics have a slightly different sound than the newer Supra’s. It is the general consensus that this is due to the fact that Ludwig used 1.6 mm Rims back then, now using a heavier 2.3 mm that affects the overall resonance / sound of the Drum…….

The Shells seem to be about the same, but I have only weighed two bare shells (no hardware) so that data doesn’t prove much. These Shells were a 1976 & 1995 Supra Phonic 402 (6.5 x 14,) following are the weights I found.

1976: 2 lb. 4.8 ounces

1995: 2 lb. 3.4 ounces

I would like to be able to say when Ludwig switched to the heavier Rims but haven’t worked enough newer Drums to come up with even an estimate other than to say that the change probably took place sometime in the 80’s, possibly the early 80’s. On top of that Ludwig had a tendency to overlap the use of different style parts while phasing one type out so I usually don’t see clean “breakpoints” between the different types (era’s) of parts…………….

LVDC
 
One thing I want to add is that if you're considering getting a Supra, buy vintage, not new, if only for the resale value. I bought a new Supra about 2 months ago, and after about a month of owning it decided that it wasn't for me. I paid $350 and only got $170 from it. The new ones have terrible resale value because the vintage ones are more sought after. People would rather pay $250 for a vintage one in good condition than a slightly used new one if they feel that there is enough of a difference in tone.
 
I had a similar situation a few years back, so I emailed Frankie Banali (Quiet Riot), who is a vintage Ludwig fanatic and a supra player himself. I asked him on several occasions about the vintage 402's sounding any different than the newer ones. He told me that in his latest studio project, he used a 1969 6.5 supra on a few tracks as well as a 2004 model. He said there was virtually no difference in the sound whatsoever. He assured me that buying a new one would produce the same sound as an older one. I took his advice and have been quite happy with mine. Food for thought....
 
You went to the trouble of having Sonor custom build you an SQ2 kit and didn't buy a matching snare????

Sonor makes some great snares; an Artist Bronze or re-issue Phonic would go well with your SQ2s.

Back on topic, I just perfer the older Ludwig drums. There are some really nice specimens out there.

Take your time and look around for a nice Supra; you have a couple of months before your new shells take that slow boat ride from Gremany to Glen Allen, VA.
 
Personally I think any difference in sound is negligable (sp?). I've heard drummers at shows playing brand spanking new supras and they sounded great. Having vintage and 70's based Luddies is nice and all but at the end of the day you gotta make music and gig. I would go to a shop and play around on one and see if it's what you like first. They're very versatile and sound even better miked IMO, and while I plan to get a wood shell snare soon (An Elvin Jones model with wood hoops!), I would NEVER EVER sell my Supras.

---LG
 
Fourstringdrums is right about resale. Whether real or imagined in sound differences, the difference between new and vintage value-wise makes buying a used or "vintage" snare the way to go. If you buy smart to start with, even if you don't like the snare and decide to sell it, you'll get your money back. Where as a new drum will almost always lose money. You could always look for a used "new" one. That $170 snare that Fourstringdrums sold was someone's score.
 
You could always look for a used "new" one. That $170 snare that Fourstringdrums sold was someone's score.

To me, that's the the moral of the story right there, since I'm positve that a new one is still going to sound really, really good!
 
You went to the trouble of having Sonor custom build you an SQ2 kit and didn't buy a matching snare????

Sonor makes some great snares; an Artist Bronze or re-issue Phonic would go well with your SQ2s.

Back on topic, I just perfer the older Ludwig drums. There are some really nice specimens out there.

Take your time and look around for a nice Supra; you have a couple of months before your new shells take that slow boat ride from Gremany to Glen Allen, VA.


I understand your argument, but to me its an aethstetic choice. I have been playing Sonor kits most of my drumming career and really know the value I get for the money, and the way Sonor drums sound like in general. So I actually ordered my kit without ever having played a SQ2 before. Simply not a lot of those in my neighbourhood, or even in my country :)

Im sure I could have ordered a brand new snare from Sonor as well, but to me the snare choice is a different thing entirely. I could never buy a snare without knowing how it sounds like, and I know Ludwig snares pretty well so I have a good general feeling about those. Im just asking since Ive not tried one of the newer Supra´s, but I guess from what you guys are saying that a new drum would be a good investment? I mean, if indeed the sound difference from the two era supra´s arent great, then I would have np buying a new one even though I get less value for the money, should I ever try to resell.

Thing is, if the new one sound almost as good as a 70´s Supra then Im not gonna sell it anyway :)

I really appreciate the replies guys.

On another note, since were on topic here. How would you compare the new Black Beauty´s to the old ones? The absolute greatest time I ever had playing a snare was when I recorded on a 5x14 BB from the 60/70´s. Theyre a bit more expensive though, and again I havent got any experience with the new models. Any info is greatly appreciated.


Thank you


-Rasmus
 
Vintage stuff is good but there really is no diffenence. It's all Nostalgia if you ask me. I ordered a brand new Ludwig Classic Maple kit including a new Chrome over brass Supra and it will perform as well as any vintage Ludwig kit anywhere. I actually prefer the new stuff because materials and quality is better with modern technology. As a gigging drummer, I don't want to lug around 40 year old equipment. Even more than that, what's most important is how you play and not what you play on. A lot of cats get all this expensive rare equipment but can't play!!!!!! Just my 2 cents.
 
I just purchased a vintage 70's B/o badge LM400.

For one I paid less than i would have for a new one,
and plus you get the added bonus of the tone control lol.

I think either way you go youre getting a quality snare.
 
I LOVE the Supra 400 - 6 1/2!!

It's my favorite snare drum of all. I've owned expensive new ones, and really inexpensive, rusty and old used ones, in TONE they all were all exactly alike, well, as exact as any two objects that occupy a different place in the same space time continuum CAN be!! HA HA !!

What I mean is all of them were very subtly different, but all of them JUST as good as all the rest. I finally sold off all the expensive pretty ones for big cash and kept the rusty, pitted (and one that's in pretty decent shape) ones that I payed very little money for but sounded just as good.

As long as the shell isn't bent, ovaled or dented too badly (meaning the bearing edges do have to be perfect, but small superficial dents in the shell won't matter) it will easily sound every bit as good as a newer one.

Ludalloy for the WIN!!
 
john bonham used a supra, listen to some zeppelin, you might be interested in that one it sounds sweet.
 
I have a '98 6.5 Hammered Supra.

It sounds great, but slightly drier than the smooth (normal one you see) version (depending on heads and tuning), but even though it's hammered, it has that "Ludwig snare" sound.

I had a 402 along time ago, but sold it...probably shouldn't have, but I do have 3 BB's, so...

The hoops on the older Supras were sometimes Brass, and those do make some difference--I heard an A-B on Dwolrd somewhere, and you could hear a little difference in tone.

Weather Brass hoops makes it sound "better" or not is debatable, and up to the person, I liked it myself.

But, if someone went trolling for a 70's B/O, wanting the Brass hoops, you can never be positive that it really has them until you get it.
I would make sure by emailing the seller to find out if a drum had Brass hoops if it was important.

Since I liked the tone difference, I purchased some Tama Brass Mighty hoops and they are very nice.
They seemed to make the drum sound a little "sweeter" to my ears.

The Tama hoops were not that much money, and hoops are easy to swap out.

If Frankie Banali said there was hardly any difference in recorded sound between the 60's-70's version and a newer one, he'd know, hes a total Ludwig fanatic--and he's played John Bonham's snares....

Black Beauties sound totally different than the Supra, but both are great.

My 2 Brass drums actual shell sounds are pretty close, but there are some slight differences tone-wise between shells.

That said, they both sound great.

I have heard that the older, say pre-95 versions of the BB have slightly ticker shells, but my Brass BB's are '00 and '04.
I can say the shells they have are pretty dang nice..

Since my '89 BB is a Bronze shell (before they went back to Brass) I can't say if it's "thicker", but it's a substantial shell.

The Bronze shell is heavier just holding it, but that may be the nature of the Bronze drums anyway.
Every Bronze Ludwig snare I've picked up has been heavy.

The actual sound difference between old B/O and new drums is really going to be up to how the drum is tuned and played, but, if someone feels it's "cooler" or it makes them happy to have the older drum, then they should get an older one.

Drum and be happy I always say!
 
I think the hoops have alot to do with the possible difference in the early models. Aside from some being COB, they were also only 1.6mm hoops, compared to the 2.3mm hoops now being offered. I agree with Karl on the Bronze shells, they are definitely heavier. Hey Karl, you really need to pick up a 402 again. Why don't you sell me one of your modern BB's? :)
 
I had the same question about 6 months ago. I had been looking for a vintage 402 in pretty good condition on ebay and craigslist, but the prices were always in the $500-$600 range. That was just too much to spend for me. Even though this was going to be my gigging snare, I really didn't want just a players drum condition. So I was leaning toward a new one.

One day I saw that Sam Ash was having a 20% off sale, so I popped in and walked out with a new 402 for only $312!

I agree with most people that there's probably a small difference in sound between new and vintage, but I'm sure it's so slight that I couldn't tell the difference. And obviously the vintage 402 is better from the resale value view, but I'm never going to sell mine so that doesn't matter to me.

So my opinion is watch for a good sale and go for a beautiful, sparkling, mint condition, NEW 402. Good luck, whichever way you decide to go.
 
How do the Supra's compare to the Super Sensitives?

I've been on a Van Halen kick lately and I absolutely love Alex Van Halen's snare sound. Especially on the song "Poundcake."

I heard he uses a Super Sensitive and has been for many many years.

I have a 1978 Acrolite, I'm looking to get some other Ludwig snare soon!
 
I've seen this before, and it's a good posting on Ludwig drums.
I'd like to find that A/B on new and old Supras again though.
It had sound clips.

I've played the import drums and they are pretty nice I must say.

At least as nice as the Black Dawg World Max snare shell....& probably made at the same factory!!

If someone need a good snare as a back up gigging drum, or a nice rehearsal snare, these would be great.

They may even sound good recorded.

A drummer on a budget could easily use the Ludwig Import snare as a main snare and have a really good sounding drum.

Plus you could get a Brass or Bronze shell & not break your bank....the Steel snare wasn't all that good sounding, but the others were nice.

Since I have so many nice snares, I'd never sell them, and I don't need another snare (the BIG reason I don't have a "402" besides the Hammered Chrome), I have to admit that I'd probably go for a early 70's B/O with Brass hoops(have to be sure they were Brass hoops) over a new 402--just because it'd be an old 70's.

The difference between new and old Supra is probably slight, no matter what the holes are, gap in lug & the center bead, or the thickness of the hoops (Frankie Banali has said it's so slight there is no "sound" difference).

The thinner hoops kinda do seem to open a drum up a bit, but those are available easily too from drum suppliers--and they are inexpensive.

Straight (single flange) hoops with the clips open up the snare pretty well, and my 2 brass BBs have them, as well as the 5" WM Brass snare I have.

New 2.3 Brass hoops are available for retro fit (Tamas are really nice).

It would just be nice to have an older drum.

My oldest drum is an Acrolite and it's my original 1975 snare.

If I was going to spend the money on a new 402, a hundred or so more for a vintage drum is worth it to me, and it'd be a drum I kept, and played--not for the shelf to look pretty.

Mendozart.... Sorry, I love my BB's to much to ever willingly part with them, but a standard 402 Supra would be nice to add again!
 
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