Drumming as Art

Dave_Major

Silver Member
Afternoon gang.

Bear with me on this but i hope this is clear

So i wanna kick my playing up a gear or 2 over the next while and have saught some help in this.
I'm at the stage in my playing that I think I know all the 'stuff' i am going to to know. I know my styles, my hands are good etc, I can dissect most peoples playing and know what they are doing - doesn't mean I can play it but I know what is happening in most things I listen to or see and if I don't I can work it out.
(I still work on being technically better on both hands, feet etc)

One of the guys i reached out to was kind enough to have a skype convo with me the other day and he brought up a very interesting point.

I opened up a clinic for him in October and there he saw my playing and in he convo he said my playing was good, clean, technically correct but lacked the art side of it. (something I feel all the time) The thing that makes someone go oh that's that guy.
That feeling we get when steve gadd hits a snare, or benny greb plays something.


Now the scene is set i'm just gonna ask all the questions in my head.


The guy I had the Skype meet with has gone through that transformation in his playing and now sounds like him so i have comfort in that it is totally possible and will come.


But do i get there by studying the guys I like and really trying to learn their things and putting my own slant on it?
Does that recognisability come from things that the player always plays? or is it sound? or is it something less tangable than that.


If we hear Vinnie C. play on a Miley Cyrus record he's just the drums there and nothing 'vinnie' in there but when he can rip he rips and becomes the drum vinnie we know.
I like that idea that I have the musical knowledge and taste to play whats required and blend in the background but when Im asked to I can put my stamp on a song.


Or will the Art side of it just come with time?


Should I practice creatively more than technically?



I'd love to hear from Bill Ray Drums because you sounds like you. I can hear the influences in your playing but it still sounds like you whenever I watch.
Anyone everyone please chip in on any of the points or on the general point of when drumming becomes art.


D
 
Although I'm working at playing drums, I'm very active in other arts (make music and drawings). I believe that style in any art form comes with time and experience. Spend some time imitating and some time exploring things out of comfort zones. Both offer a lot of places to grow creatively. Also, some parts of style don't even come from playing on the drum set. Ultimately, your style is just what you think is good. Should I accent this beat? What grip sounds best for me in this part? What style of drumming really fits this piece? The answers to these questions come from inside, and often, the answers can come from places totally unrelated to actual drum playing (scenery, philosophy, etc.) Of course, these are all just examples, but for me style really does come from random places that form my beliefs about playing the drums.

Edit: And this is a really big source of frustration for me when making art because there is no right answer. Sometimes I feel like my art is great and others I feel it's terrible. I guess it's part of being human hahaha.
 
...I believe that style in any art form comes with time and experience. Spend some time imitating and some time exploring things out of comfort zones...

IMO Billy Ward really covers these concepts well in both of his DVDs - what he calls "practice-playing “ is a great way to develop your own voice...
 
I had a couple of thoughts here, but obviously these are not based on any kind of "knowledge!"

I identify the art side as being signature licks and the way the player hits. Although the way a player hits can be affected massively by what sound they were going for in the studio or live etc. So I would probably weight that 70% signature licks or phrases even short ones that crop up often and 30% the way the strike the drums.

The way I would approach things therefore to develop the art side of things would be to dedicate some practice time to playing along to songs but playing what you would have played had you written the drum part. (lets ignore the naysayers who will say that the original drum part was probably already perfect for the song, as that doesn't matter here).

Really all art is, is creativity. If you play along to a piece of music what would you create with the drums as you listen to the music. Would your interpretation of what the song needs change the way the song sounds and feels. I believe that if you played freely along to something that way, recorded it and then listened back and analysed what you like and dislike from a listeners standpoint rather than a drummers, that process would start to yield a natural appreciation for how and where to get your creativity and natural artisiticness into your playing.

Also, for all you respect the guy who gave you that opinion. That is one opinion, art is so subjective who's to say he's not wrong and its very easy to tell when Dave Major is playing!
 
Perhaps he simply meant that music is an art form and not just chops and technique.

Like when gigging, and the band plays a song perfectly, and its sounds good, but sometimes its not perfect but there is that certain "Magic" that happens with a band and it sounds great. To me that is art and it also happens with drumming.
 
Personality, personality. What makes you stand out, not technically but dramatically. "he's the guy that....". Are you stiff? Do you try too hard to mimic others? Litlle bits of everyone is OK but where is Dave in all of your playing?
 
Personality, personality. What makes you stand out, not technically but dramatically. "he's the guy that....". Are you stiff? Do you try too hard to mimic others? Litlle bits of everyone is OK but where is Dave in all of your playing?

For sure. IMO art happens when the human playing the music gives of themselves in a completely honest way. Think Hiromi. She is laying her personality...herself... out there for all to see, with no reservations and no shyness. To the contrary, she delivers herself with such joy, in such an unpretentious way, that it's positively infectious. She has moved well beyond the notes and now she is channeling human emotion from a higher place, not the conscious mind. That's the difference between art and technically great playing in my opinion anyway, the human emotion factor. Cold sterile great playing is beaten by less great but emotion laden playing everyday IMO.

It's not in a book, it's in your soul, it's already there. It has to be allowed out so you can develop it. It takes real guts to reveal it. Real art taps the soul. That is really what any person in the arts should strive for, revealing themselves through their chosen medium.
 
There's nothing wrong with being good, clean, and technically correct-- that's the whole job much of the time. I think the people I hear who I feel are missing something, but can otherwise play, usually it seems like they're not in love with music enough. They'll be into playing the drums, but there's no melodic through-line, and there ends up being some soul lacking.

Like, to me is seems significant that you mention Benny Greb-- he's a player I have no basis for getting excited about, because I've never heard him play music; I've only seen videos of technical demonstrations or drum clinic solos. However musically he does those things, for me it has no meaning without a context. It's a little like stock photography; it would make sense that if you were a photographer, and that was a major part of what you were into, your stuff might tend to be a little cold. I don't know what that means-- maybe you could be more in love with how the drums work in context? Just a thought.
 
Some players do possess the art, and it comes through no matter what they play. Whether deliberate or by accident, Ringo is one of those drummers which may explain why his drumming causes such vehement discussion... as is the case with most art forms.

But a lot of drumming art is largely in the ear of the beholder. We each assign a level of artistic validity to what we hear, whether it is intentional or not on the part of the drummer.

I don't think that trying to develop the art aspect of playing is crucial, it will come, or it won't... and people will get it, or they won't. On a less conceptual level is simply the ability to play in the context of a group, for which every drummer must be mindful.

Bermuda
 
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Hey guys,

thanks for everyones input. Good discussion going on.

@Gruntersdad - Exactly my point in terms of who am I? Does that develop over time and naturally through my brain subconsciously selecting go to ideas?

@Larryace cool man. Hiromi is awesome and I get what you mean.

@toddbishop - hey dude. I only mention Benny because he was part of the conversation I had but he does has a very particular unique style.
I am cool with the drummers and drums role. And I did 5 gigs this weekend and played nothing fancy and loved every minute of it because that's what the job is.

I don't play any music that requires the chops element of it or really for me to stamp my personality on it. But I guess when I do I am slightly cautious in my approach. The more i do I guess I'll just lose that and then 'I' will emerge

@Diet - cheers dude!

The guy was Mike Johnston btw so if anyone knows his playing from 3 years ago and then now he has developed a certain thing. It's not my thing and it's not how I would play but it is definitely him and him alone.
He also compared himself to me in that he was also a technical player but had no 'style' and worked on developing it over the last 3 years.

As a question to everyone do you think that if you sat for example - Benny, Steve Gadd, Mike Johnston, Vinnie C and Phil Rudd down and got em to play Back In Black, in a blindfold test could we tell the difference?

D
 
For me it comes down to transparency.

Vinnie is capable of being so completely transparent you can't tell it's him, and when he wants to shake that aspect you'll know because he'll blast you in the face with otherworldly chops that only he can pull off. That's how you know it's him.

Steve Gadd is not quite as transparent so you can hear that it's him even when he's just playing time, but it's still fairly subtle. Most of his chops have his DNA all over it.

Phil Rudd doesn't have much in the way of chops but you can definitely hear it's him just in the way he plays time, but I suspect that's more a result of his particular habits than anything he consciously developed.

I'm not familiar with Mike Johnston in any musical context so I can't say much about him, but for Back In Black (or any AC/DC) I'd take either Gadd or Rudd. I wouldn't even consider Vinnie for that gig.

I think for developing the artistic side, you have to be able to compartmentalize the chops developed during all the years of focused practice and send them down to your subconscious while allowing your natural ear and aesthetic sense, developed over a lifetime as a simple music fan, to emerge and guide your choices.

Art has more to do with the choices you make. There seems to be this tendency among those striving to be a working pros to break toward the transparent side since that generates more work. Choosing to let more DNA show in your playing might not get you as many calls, but does work toward your development as a more artistic player.

And therein lies the rub.
 
For me it comes down to transparency.

Vinnie is capable of being so completely transparent you can't tell it's him, and when he wants to shake that aspect you'll know because he'll blast you in the face with otherworldly chops that only he can pull off. That's how you know it's him.

Steve Gadd is not quite as transparent so you can hear that it's him even when he's just playing time, but it's still fairly subtle. Most of his chops have his DNA all over it.

Phil Rudd doesn't have much in the way of chops but you can definitely hear it's him just in the way he plays time, but I suspect that's more a result of his particular habits than anything he consciously developed.

I'm not familiar with Mike Johnston in any musical context so I can't say much about him, but for Back In Black (or any AC/DC) I'd take either Gadd or Rudd. I wouldn't even consider Vinnie for that gig.

I think for developing the artistic side, you have to be able to compartmentalize the chops developed during all the years of focused practice and send them down to your subconscious while allowing your natural ear and aesthetic sense, developed over a lifetime as a simple music fan, to emerge and guide your choices.

Art has more to do with the choices you make. There seems to be this tendency among those striving to be a working pros to break toward the transparent side since that generates more work. Choosing to let more DNA show in your playing might not get you as many calls, but does work toward your development as a more artistic player.

And therein lies the rub.

Hi Mike, good points.

Yeah it's choices (another thing that was mentioned in convo) it's always the choices.

The AC/DC thing wasn't a who would be better at the gig just if we plonked these drummers down in the same musical context, same kit even - do you think we could tell each one from the other??

Also I love Vinnie for that very reason you mentioned.

D
 
... dedicate some practice time to playing along to songs but playing what you would have played had you written the drum part.
I love this idea! In fact, it's practically the only way I practice drums anymore (time constraints and all). Bonus if there isn't already a drum track (Adele's 'Turning Tables' comes to mind). A lot of electronic music with programmed grooves lends itself well to this purpose as well.

The other thing I forgot to mention that sorta goes along with this (and that Deit Kirk also pointed out) is that creativity, like anything else, really needs to be practiced, not just as something done in a practice room, but as something that gets put into practice - like the way a doctor practices medicine.

For example, if you played 5 gigs over the weekend and nowhere was there any room for you and your expression, and if this is typical, then IMO you're too skewed away from creativity.

To look again at Vinnie, notice how often he takes gigs that allow him to stretch out. For every strictly commercial gig he takes where you can't tell it's him, he's doing some big Jeff Beck or Sting thing where he's hired to show, among other things, what a badass he is. I'm sure he's not doing that for just the money - he's doing that to satisfy his need to creatively express his bad self. As with anyone with anything, the more you get to do something, the better you get at it.

All this to say that you may need to take some lower profile gigs, or gigs with less money-making potential that not only allow you get creative, but that will actually *require* it.

Ignoring the polarizing aspect of Neil Peart and Rush, there was a band whose very model was based on challenging themselves creatively and technically, but in a way that was smooth and retained radio-friendly elements. I can guarantee that when they were looking for a drummer back in '74, they had no interest in anyone wanting to play with any transparency. Neil got that gig because he was willing to stick his neck out and play what he'd want to hear if it were him in the audience.

And maybe that's the whole point: play to satisfy yourself.

If you think overplaying with fills every 4 bars is tacky and immature, then don't do it; if you think an unexpected and explosive fill in the middle of a verse done for artistic effect would really hit the spot, then go for it. But in order to do that, you really need to be taking the gigs that permit it.
 
And maybe that's the whole point: play to satisfy yourself.
I think it is the point. I need variety. I don't mind being the hired hand who serves another musician's vision; in fact, I really love the challenge of that. But that's not enough for me. I need to play creative music, too. I know some people are content not to, but I wouldn't play this instrument if I couldn't.
 
Here's my take on this.

I have interviewed many "famous" drummers and studied with a few as well. What I take away every time from the drummers who sound like themselves (Jojo Mayer, Billy Cobham, Steve Gadd) is the fact they know who they are inside (beyond drumming). It is a deep concept but it is very real. Many do not obsess about technique, chops etc. They obsess about concepts and expression. Jojo, for example, is obsessed with inventing things. Cobham is obsessed with visual art.

There are things intangible that we love outside of drumming and that is a part of who we are. But it influences how we play, what we play, how we perceive, how we hear etc. It is about connecting to that and utilizing the drums as a tangible expression of what that means to you.

Add to this. The drummers who epitomize the meaning of artistic players are heavily influenced by other musicians or artists. I once had a conversation with a true legend in the drumming world and he said that he wants to learn to play drums the way Gordon Ramsay can cook.

The art comes through the action if the expression is there.
 
I think it is the point. I need variety. I don't mind being the hired hand who serves another musician's vision; in fact, I really love the challenge of that. But that's not enough for me. I need to play creative music, too. I know some people are content not to, but I wouldn't play this instrument if I couldn't.


Me too. I would not enjoy being a hired gun, expected to play in a certain way and have no imput into the creative process.

We play funk covers but we are all from different musical backgrounds and we all bring something to the party. Thats how we make the songs our own. I would never dream of suggesting any of the other musicians in the band change the way they play, blending the different styles and influences is what makes the music different and exciting.
 
Dave it will come out in time. Not in your drum room or studio so much as in personality reacting with situations and people. You can develop flair etc and flash by yourself but not personality.
If a friend said of someone else, that person has a lot of personality, it happens among people not by oneself
 
Dave, like you said, Bill Ray sounds like Bill Ray, and by that same token, Dave Major sounds like Dave Major. Dave Major sounds like Dave Major who is (fill in the blank) years into the drumming journey. Over time I think we tend to define ourselves more, become more clear cut as to who we are, it's a natural progression, and it's like wine maturing. You can't rush it, it takes what it takes. You can only compare yourself to yourself because no one is like you.

Just make yourself happy, be true to what you believe in, and the rest will fall into place.

Your "artiness" is already there. How developed it is is another question. Anyone's "artfulness"...it's just a natural by-product of seeking out what interests you and feeling things the way you feel them. You cannot escape putting your stamp on everything you do. Some people seem to have more artfulness than others, where really it's just more developed. They are further along in the journey. So you already have it. It's like a plant that needs nurturing so it can bear fruit.
 
All this to say that you may need to take some lower profile gigs, or gigs with less money-making potential that not only allow you get creative, but that will actually *require* it.

Yes! Also, expect these gigs to not pay very well. Weeknights are best, so they don't interfere with your weekend gigs.
 
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