Another *&^%$# Bar Owner

rogue_drummer

Gold Member
Why are bar owners and managers such jerks to work with? I know of 2 independent booking agents here in town that have quit the business because they are so frustrated and tired of the BS.

Get this, I'm trying to get our band gigs and have gone on a well known restaurant chain's web site here in town and sent emails per their instructions. And sent again. And again, and again and have never received anything back. So I'm getting pretty frustrated. I reached out to several friends via FB asking if anyone knew the booking agent. A friend wrote back she knew 2 of the manager's - one at one location and the other at another and talked to the one closet to us. She told me he asked if our band "can bring a sizable crowd" to his bar. Funny since his place doesn't have that much live music, but they have a great stage setup.

I told her we did, but felt like saying we can bring the crowd and heavy drinkers but there's gotta be a good percentage of the bar receipts in it for us. Or a good flat rate or a combination of both.

I dunno, it just struck me as being a bit a-hole-ish on his part. Like his place doesn't have a good enough draw of patrons on its own, he has to put the responsibility back on a band? After practicing since June, we are ready to get to gigging, but not sure if I have the temperment or patience for a lot of "bar owner / manager" BS now.

Last time I dealt with a bar owner the dude always came up with excuses week after week like he forgot his booking calendar, or his cell phone died and he lost my number, or he misplaced his briefcase with my contact info....
 
The truth is that there are almost no patrons who frequent these establishments.
The bars and clubs are dying out. The booking agents and the managers have no business plan that will help bring in people. That is why they act as they do.
 
I dunno, it just struck me as being a bit a-hole-ish on his part. Like his place doesn't have a good enough draw of patrons on its own, he has to put the responsibility back on a band?

It's not strictly the band's responsibility, but bars aren't in the business of paying bands just to be nice. The band has to make it worthwhile for the bar to bring them if they expect to be paid, and in turn, the bar must make it worthwhile for the band, based on the benefit that the band brings to the bar.

When either part of that scenario is not fulfilled, that's where you have a problem. There are certainly clubs that screw bands, and there are certainly bands that think they should get paid just for showing up and playing to an empty place. Neither can last for long.

Everybody should know the drill on this by now, it's nothing new. If you've ever run a business, you'd know how expenditures have to relate to revenues.

Bermuda
 
"Do they draw a crowd?" doesn't necessarily reflect whether or not they will book a band, it reflects whether or not the band needs to be booked in tandem with a draw act or not.

Rock clubs want a warmup act and a draw act on the stage each night. They don't want to put two draws on in the same night because they run out of their limited pool of draws and start having to pay headliners. They certainly don't want to put two warmups (and no draw) on in the same night, because the room will be empty.

One warmup, one draw (or a variation thereof).

Alternatively, they might just be a-holes
 
I've known a few people who've owned bar/restaurants and just listening to them and their woes about running their own business, I'm kind of surprised they decide to have live entertainment at all. It's like this weird symbiotic relationship; they exist for you to be able to play, you play to keep the crowd there eating and drinking so in turn, they can pay for being there. It reminds me of that tattoo of the snake going in a circle eating it's own tail.
 
Thanks for letting me vent a little bit guys. And thank you for the great insight you guys always provide. That's what makes DW the best.
 
A venue owner asking about the draw status of a band that's unknown to them, is completely reasonable, especially if the act has little - no gigging history. They need to know how/when to pitch the act such that it benefits their business.

Of course, the poor communication thing is a real PITA, & yes, many of them are A holes, but the question, in itself, is an expected one.

The bottom feeder gigging scene is a terrible cesspit, but unfortunately, often one that must be immersed in if you want to progress. For cover bands, it provides those necessary gigging miles & the chance to build audience response. For originals bands, it's a near impossible place to exist without some initial momentum angle. Recording - social media exposure - festival / event early bill placement being the best vehicles I can think of.

In general, the game has changed, but not at the street gutter level. You used to gig to promote the album, now you record the album to promote the gigs, unless you're right in that very upper strata.
 
If you can"Bring your own crowd" why not just book a venue in a club or hotel and keep all the profits?

Or bar owner pays the band the door takings friom a small cover charge, the punters cant expect free entertainment.

We have done a few gigs and done our own door. The venue was free but the owner get all the bar money from what would have been an empty room on the night.
 
I look at venues whenever I drive by. If there is no band, then there is maybe one or two people there. If there is a band then there is a crowd. That's what is happening in my neighborhood.

Bars are the worst gigs.
 
If you can"Bring your own crowd" why not just book a venue in a club or hotel and keep all the profits?

Or bar owner pays the band the door takings friom a small cover charge, the punters cant expect free entertainment.

We have done a few gigs and done our own door. The venue was free but the owner get all the bar money from what would have been an empty room on the night.

We've just started to make the occasional few quid by doing as you suggest, organising the gigs ourselves.

I guess it's like making that step from working for the man to going self employed. Scary, but no logical reason that it can't work out.

For the record I find 'promoters' eminently bigger PITA's than bar owners over here. Promoters over here seems to be code for parasites, crooks, and wide boys. Most of them up hereabouts couldn't promote their own arses towards a toilet
 
Unfortunately this is the nature of the beast. A guy at my work (who plays in a KISS Tribute band) and I were discussing this the other day. We feel that in a few years, there will be virtually no bars booking cover bands, due to the nature of ASCAP/BMI fees that bars have to pay out. For the record, I've also heard that they have to pay these fees even if they have a jukebox. But I'm not going to pretend to know something. I'm sure some else here has a broader knowledge of this than I.

I'm new to this and I've been booking my band(s) for the past few years. And I've learned that bar managers couldn't give 2 $hits what your band sounds like. The only question they all ask is how big your crowd is. If a crappy band that just picked up their instruments yesterday for the first time has a hundred alcoholic friends who will stay there during the entirety of the night, THEY WILL BE BOOKED. On the other hand, if a bunch of seasoned musicians have their music as tight as tight can be only have 10 friends.....they will not get a show.

And I'm honestly not bitter, I understand that it's all a business. Yes it's a little frustrating where we can one night that we bring in 50 people and pack the house and still only make $400 (and you know the bar made a massive ring at the register.) On the other hand another night where you only bring in 10, and the manager offers you only $200 and tells you to wrap it up after the first 2 sets due to lack of patrons.

I personally like one local bar's precedent somewhat: Pay a base pay ($250) and then for every $1000 that the register rings WHILE THE BAND IS PLAYING, the band gets another $100. The bar is shown the register tape at the end of the evening. I will say we got screwed on this once. We play the standard of 9pm to 1am. We brought fans in at 7:30 who started drinking A LOT. But we only got based off what the register rang from 9pm to 1am. And made very little. Anytime we play there.....we tell our people to get there at 9:05.

This is just a perspective from a 37 yr old, who just started playing gigs on a regular basis a few years ago. But honestly, I feel privileged to be playing on any stage at all and actually getting paid ANYTHING for something that I enjoy.
 
Find a barn or warehouse with room and electricity. Charge for the band. I,ve heard a hundred times how al and Joe Bouchard of blue oyster cult did this as kids. Every Saturday night there was a barn dance in their parents barn. Mrs. Bouchard worked with my mother in law for many,many years and the whole office knew the stories as they were very fond memories for Mrs. B. If the music is good they will come!
 
I agree with what has gone before, if you want to maximise your profits then simply book a venue out yourselves and then you get all the benefits. However, the downside is you better draw a large crowd or you will end up out of pocket. Ultimately it's about risk vs. reward. If you dontt can't do this then accept that the market value of your act is low as it is unproven to the venue owner/promoter. Only once you have proven the draw can you seriously expect to negotiate terms.
 
...the downside is you better draw a large crowd or you will end up out of pocket.

Funny, some of these bands don't understand that the bar owner doesn't want to be out of pocket either!

Ultimately it's about risk vs. reward. If you dontt can't do this then accept that the market value of your act is low as it is unproven to the venue owner/promoter. Only once you have proven the draw can you seriously expect to negotiate terms.

They also don't seem to get that.

I'm somewhat amused by the entitlement some bands have, that somebody who owns a business owes them money simply because they've learned some songs. The band has NO concept of the establishment's income or expenses - nor is it any of their business - yet they assign an arbitrary value to themselves and whine when they don't get it.

That's not to say there aren't some places that can afford to pay a band $3-400 for the night, and then don't, but for a band to be mad because they can't tell a potential employer what to do is just insanity.

Once the band demonstrates that they have a consistent following that brings business into a venue, then and only then can they start negotiating.

If the guys in these bands had ever paid attention when they had day jobs, they'd have a little more respect for how businesses must operate in order to stay in business.

Bermuda
 
this may not be what you want to hear

but bar owners and promoters don't give a scratch about you or your band

they care about booze sales and revenue stream

if you cannot draw preferably people who will be returning patrons to their establishment they unfortunately have little use for you
 
A bar owner is in business to sell alcohol and attract people to the establishment. He's not there to supply you with an audience or help jump start the career of local musicians.

I have never heard of asking for a cut of the bar. Just like he doesn't expect you to pay part of his rent, his utilities bill, his alcohol bill, labor cost, insurance, and taxes etc.
 
but bar owners and promoters don't give a scratch about you or your band

This is true. Even the rock clubs that exist to promote live music and don't cater to alcoholics tend to care little about individual bands, and do their best to support the live-music ecosystem as a whole. Two bands a night on weekdays, 3 on weekends, karaoke Tuesdays, open mic Wednesdays, all ages matinées on Sunday.

No matter how you work it, it becomes a grind. Idiot singers spitting water into monitors. Bands stealing mics. Band's wrecking equipment. Bands bring their own "sound guy" that has no business touching a digital mixer. Bands that don't respect the load-in/out policies and times. Bands wrecking the green room. Bands with underage members that repeatedly attempt to violate drinking laws. Bands who want to be paid off the books. No shows. Late shows. Bands that back their van through the gate into the heat-exchange for the walk-in. Bands who exceed their wooden nickel allotment and expect to continue to drink for free. Bands stealing from other bands. Bands getting into physical altercations with audience members, employees, and other bands. Bands who have members with outstanding warrants so the police arrest him right before the show. Bands who make their money selling drugs to audience members.

When a good band finally happens to come in, you're completely desensitized.
 
I have never heard of asking for a cut of the bar. Just like he doesn't expect you to pay part of his rent, his utilities bill, his alcohol bill, labor cost, insurance, and taxes etc.


^^ This is how a number of rock clubs operate. An example of a rock club would be the Skylark cafe in Seattle. No cover, no tickets. Bands get a fixed % of the bar paid at closing.

This is a fairly recent development though, as it takes something like "Diner-ware" or a modern point-of-sale system that handles the arithmetic and taxes to work.
 
A bar owner is in business to sell alcohol and attract people to the establishment. He's not there to supply you with an audience or help jump start the career of local musicians.

Exactly. How is it that people, even musicians, don't get that?

The biggest mistake is thinking that bars make a ton of money because they charge $5-10 for drinks, and it looks like money is flying around... surely enough to pay a local band $100/member, right? They don't take into account the bartender's salary (yes, they get paid because they conduct and perhaps encourage business...) the wait staff (same as above...) the cost of the alcohol and related supplies like napkins, cherries, limes, etc., glasses/plates etc., the business and alcohol licenses, rent, electricity, building maintenance and repairs, insurance, repairs, furnishings, taxes, ASCAP fees if they have a jukebox or live cover bands, and I'm probably missing a few things. They're in business to make money, not to lose or break-even.

It's unbelievable the sense of entitlement and oblivion that so many musicians possess. There aren't really any clueless types in my circle of players, but I occasionally cross paths with someone who just doesn't know, and do my best to educate them.

Bermuda
 
Exactly. How is it that people, even musicians, don't get that?

The biggest mistake is thinking that bars make a ton of money because they charge $5-10 for drinks, and it looks like money is flying around... surely enough to pay a local band $100/member, right? They don't take into account the bartender's salary (yes, they get paid because they conduct and perhaps encourage business...) the wait staff (same as above...) the cost of the alcohol and related supplies like napkins, cherries, limes, etc., glasses/plates etc., the business and alcohol licenses, rent, electricity, building maintenance and repairs, insurance, repairs, furnishings, taxes, ASCAP fees if they have a jukebox or live cover bands, and I'm probably missing a few things. They're in business to make money, not to lose or break-even.

It's unbelievable the sense of entitlement and oblivion that so many musicians possess. There aren't really any clueless types in my circle of players, but I occasionally cross paths with someone who just doesn't know, and do my best to educate them.

Bermuda

^^This.

It is a strange sense of entitlement. I always encourage everyone to itemize every expense when trying to be musicians, and yo will find all kinds of things that you're not willing to give up on your way to acquiring the almighty dollar. Then you will become a businessperson ;)
 
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