Open handed technique

Of course it doesn't improve sound by virtue of being used, but speaking from specifically the Orbin setup, my main squeeze is that it forces one out of one's comfortable space. Instead of falling back on the same beats & patterns of playing, I now actually think and orchestrate with the song. Having multiple hi-hats helps immensely with this as one obviously has different pitches available that can complement chord changes. Mangini obviously takes that to the extreme with 2 rides and 4 hi-hats, but it's still a very useful tool for me.

As for vocab- I agree that there's not a massive amount of stuff that can't be played or approximated on a traditional kit. Anup is not at all a good example of open handed playing, especially since he plays right hand lead almost exclusively... this Orbin video, around 2:00, features some stuff that I think is certainly easier on a setup like his. This video also shows off some stuff.

Red, what I first did to try it out was just folding up the legs of my hi-hat stand and jerry-rigging a bass drum hoop clamp to see if left foot lead was feasible for me. Then I got a sub-$100 Gibraltar no-leg stand once I had decided I'd try it.
 
With all due respect Jeff, I think the naysayers have likely never actually played open handed playing over a long period and criticise it from the sidelines. That is a guess but it reminds me of martial artists who cannot kick high and lambast high kicks. Failing to understand that if one's high kicks have power, one's low kicks are even more powerful.

What I discovered is that many possibilities show themselves as a result. I can only speak for myself. I have been concentrating on open handed playing for just 8 years out of 35 years playing. So my right hand has time on its side. Nevertheless I love what open handed has offered.

To each his own.

Jeff Almeyda said:
Just to play devil's advocate here...

The biggest con I've heard has been that you spend hundreds of hours working on stuff that will add zero to your vocabulary. In other words, you are learning how to play the same beat you already can do instead of learning new things or improving the sound of your current vocabulary. Imagine a guitar player learning all his scales on a lefty guitar to "open his mind". Don't think so.

I can't say that I've ever heard an open handed player (including Carter and Simon) play anything that I thought was brilliant because of the open handed approach. They are brilliant players because of who they are not because they ride with the other hand.

I'm not against open handed playing. I played it exclusively for 3 years. But it wasn't this incredible boon to my playing that blew me away. It was just using a different hand to ride with. (Plus unless you change your tom setup, you will still have to play "righty".)

Mangini has taken this to the extreme with his fully ambidextrous kit but then again, he told me he spent 6 years working it up. At least he can say that he can do chromatic scales on his kit without crossing his hands. That is something new. I can't say how much application one might find with it but it still is new.

Yeah it's cool but it does not necessarily improve the impact of your musical statement.
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I'd just like to add one negative to open handed playing if I may. Before I chose this I shared match and traditional grip 50/50. Since changing to open handed I virtually ignore trad grip. I only use trad for brushes these days and sometimes I play it on the pad.
That is just me of course. I did not choose it and it only became apparent later.
 
Red Menace said:
I wish there was a more affordable remote hihat available, something that I could mount above my bass drum. I would love to try open handed playing but I wouldn't want to switch to left hand lead.

If I switched to left hand lead that means I would have to play with matched grip and my left hand matched is terrible.
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If you're playing on a right handed kit, left hand lead is what open handed is. I know this because I play open handed on a right handed kit.
 
wy yung said:
With all due respect Jeff, I think the naysayers have likely never actually played open handed playing over a long period and criticise it from the sidelines.
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"I played it exclusively for 3 years."

chasekratzer said:
If you're playing on a right handed kit, left hand lead is what open handed is. I know this because I play open handed on a right handed kit.
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I think they mean they want to play open handed right hand lead and keep the feet the same.
 
evogel said:
Gary Chester was a proponent of this.
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He was also a proponent of practicing 8-12 hours a day-- at least that's the kind of schedule his students had to adopt to get through the stuff he was having them do. If you aren't putting in that kind of time, you aren't going to be able to do everything Chester advocated. It would actually be self-sabotaging to take up some of those things, because working on them takes time away from all of the important, totally mundane stuff you have to be able to do really well in order to be any kind of musician.

Nour Ayasso said:
Oh and there's plenty of stuff to do on an ambidextrous kit that you won't beable to do on a normal kit.
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There's also plenty of more stuff than that which you'll be able to do if you just practice the one thing a whole lot more. The real limiter on most people's playing is not "can't reach enough stuff to hit", it's "doesn't practice enough", and "practices the wrong stuff."

MikeM said:
If your left hand is on the hats, your right hand is free to roam the kit.
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It's only free to roam the kit if someone spends a lot of time learning to play really well in that orientation. This extra freedom people are advertising is strictly hypothetical until they've done that.

But what I do when I need(?) to be roaming the kit, is move my right hand to the ride cymbal. I guess conceivably there could be an occasion when I really need to play a lot of tom toms while also playing specifically the hihat, and not the cymbal, but no way am I ever spending any amount of practice time preparing for that eventuality-- there's too much other stuff to learn, and polish.

That's what I don't get. All of the complaints re: normal playing and the claimed advantages re: OH playing can be remedied/acheived with zero additional hours of practice by just never playing the hihat with your RH. If you do that, and get a remote hihat, the rationale for OH playing evaporates.
 
If a long time, accomplished player (such as Wy Yung) decides to play open handed, that's his/her choice. But for the less experienced player, I think the concept of setting up your kit differently to "encourage creativity" or "expand your vocabulary" is a cop out.

I would go as far to say that the concept is in direct conflict with true musical creativity. True musical creativity comes from the artist feeling something inside and working out how to get it out (using their medium such as paint, music, whatever). It isn't something that can be bought or gotten from a YouTube tip or an equipment change.

"Hey guys, I'm playing my bass drum with my hands! Look how creative I am!" Yeah Sure.

When I think of a player who expanded the vocabulary of the instrument I think of Max Roach with his meoldic approach or Elvis with his organic, broken triplet, 4 limbed approach. The expansion of the vocabulary came from a musical place inside their souls not from using a different hand to lead with.

End of Rant
 
With all due respect Jeff, I think your self professed rant is over reaching.

Creativity is very much impacted by the tools available to you and how/when you access them. The idea of creative limitation draws on exactly that principle. Check this amazing story by artist Phil Hansen on the subject:

http://www.ted.com/talks/phil_hansen_embrace_the_shake

Creativity is not nearly the zen-like state some ascribe it to be, where ideas manifest themselves from the inside. Sometimes to paraphrase Jack London you have to go after it with a club. Changing your approach is a well established way of doing that, which would include open-handed playing.
 
Jeff Almeyda said:
If a long time, accomplished player (such as Wy Yung) decides to play open handed, that's his/her choice. But for the less experienced player, I think the concept of setting up your kit differently to "encourage creativity" or "expand your vocabulary" is a cop out.
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I won't speak for Bill, but to me it's significant that he was already a professional player, working a very creatively-limiting gig.

I would go as far to say that the concept is in direct conflict with true musical creativity. True musical creativity comes from the artist feeling something inside and working out how to get it out (using their medium such as paint, music, whatever). It isn't something that can be bought or gotten from a YouTube tip or an equipment change.

"Hey guys, I'm playing my bass drum with my hands! Look how creative I am!" Yeah Sure.
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It's an amateur's idea of creativity. If we're talking about being musicians, then real creativity happens in relation to a piece of music; but part-time players are by definition not playing a lot of music, and for many of them the only outlet is fiddling with superficial stuff— with gear and techniques.
 
wy yung said:
With all due respect Jeff, I think the naysayers have likely never actually played open handed playing.
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Yeeeaahh.....I've been playing ambidextrous for a while, clearly it doesn't magically make me better at grooving. It does improve your ability to independently control your limbs which is drastically important in drumming. Mainly what you're all missing is how ambidextrous playing/set ups offer more than normal playing; musically AND ergonomically. It's pretty obvious there are certain things you CANNOT do on normal kits compared to ambidextrous set ups.
 
Nour Ayasso said:
Yeeeaahh.....I've been playing ambidextrous for a while, clearly it doesn't magically make me better at grooving. It does improve your ability to independently control your limbs which is drastically important in drumming. Mainly what you're all missing is how ambidextrous playing/set ups offer more than normal playing; musically AND ergonomically. It's pretty obvious there are certain things you CANNOT do on normal kits compared to ambidextrous set ups.
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I agree. I think one issue here is that open handed does not necessarily mean symmetrical layout. I've been playing sym kits for years now and there are a few different ways to approach it. My current kit looks normal as far as ride and HH (right/left respectively) but the toms are two up and one down on either side with the HH (remote) sitting higher and a little further back than typical, closer to a mirror image of the ride position. Prior to this I had HH center with two rides, one left, one right. I rather liked the two rides for two different timbres. I have also seen ride and HH centered but never tried it.

My opinion is that open handed with a traditional layout is not all that it could be, you're still limiting yourself.
 
Still experimenting playing a right handed setup as a lefty open-handed. My setup is 2 up, 1 down, where rack toms and snare form a triangle off the the side.

One thing I noticed right away is the HH setup. I feel like I'm to close to the HH. do I need to push back the hats far enough to get more comfy? Problem I see doing that is now my left leg is stretched out further. Not sure is that's ergonomically correct.

any ideas would be helpful.
 
ronyd said:
Still experimenting playing a right handed setup as a lefty open-handed. My setup is 2 up, 1 down, where rack toms and snare form a triangle off the the side.

One thing I noticed right away is the HH setup. I feel like I'm to close to the HH. do I need to push back the hats far enough to get more comfy? Problem I see doing that is now my left leg is stretched out further. Not sure is that's ergonomically correct.

any ideas would be helpful.
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You have to make sure your snare is centered, and you are centered with it as well. And have your hi hats along each pedal so everything is equally spaced. Im not saying your kit has to be symmetrical, but your HH snare HH should all be symmetrical and you centered with the snare. This will make everything a lot more comfortable
 
Hi Jeff.

You are entitled to rant. As are we all. I hold you in the high esteem you deserve. I do hope I did not offend. That was not my intention.

Over the past 5 years I have had to deal with a different demographic in my teaching practice. I now have several young kids. I relate to Vic Firth speaking about how very young children will automatically play open handed. I can attest to Vic's accuracy in his observation. As a result open handed is not only a good idea for myself, but also a necessity.

To the guy who devoted 3 years... You should have gone an extra 5. ;)

I recommend people curious about this method check out others such as Johnathon Mover, Simon Phillips and others well versed in the style for their thoughts.


Jeff Almeyda said:
If a long time, accomplished player (such as Wy Yung) decides to play open handed, that's his/her choice. But for the less experienced player, I think the concept of setting up your kit differently to "encourage creativity" or "expand your vocabulary" is a cop out.

I would go as far to say that the concept is in direct conflict with true musical creativity. True musical creativity comes from the artist feeling something inside and working out how to get it out (using their medium such as paint, music, whatever). It isn't something that can be bought or gotten from a YouTube tip or an equipment change.

"Hey guys, I'm playing my bass drum with my hands! Look how creative I am!" Yeah Sure.

When I think of a player who expanded the vocabulary of the instrument I think of Max Roach with his meoldic approach or Elvis with his organic, broken triplet, 4 limbed approach. The expansion of the vocabulary came from a musical place inside their souls not from using a different hand to lead with.

End of Rant
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For those who are in favor of open handed playing, I wonder what your feelings are about remote hi-hats. The thing that I keep see in this (and other) threads is the price. If remote stands were the same price as traditional hi-hat stands, would your opinion be different?

Another argument that I keep seeing is that people play crossed out of tradition - so open handed is an evolution of drumming. But why would we allow or playing to evolve to fit the traditional setup? Why not allow the setup itself to evolve with the use of remote hi-hats? And yes, they are expensive but people spend similar amounts on top of the line double bass drum pedals and ride cymbals.

Also (along with left hand lead) Gary Chester did recommend using an x-hat, a stationary hi-hat stand placed on the right. I wonder if he would have used a remote hi-hat if they were available. Maybe they were available at the time, but the action most likely was not as smooth as today.

Just some food for thought.

Jeff
 
wy yung said:
Hi Jeff.

You are entitled to rant. As are we all. I hold you in the high esteem you deserve. I do hope I did not offend. That was not my intention.

Over the past 5 years I have had to deal with a different demographic in my teaching practice. I now have several young kids. I relate to Vic Firth speaking about how very young children will automatically play open handed. I can attest to Vic's accuracy in his observation. As a result open handed is not only a good idea for myself, but also a necessity.

To the guy who devoted 3 years... You should have gone an extra 5. ;)

I recommend people curious about this method check out others such as Johnathon Mover, Simon Phillips and others well versed in the style for their thoughts.
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No sweat at all, my friend. This is a forum for the open exchange of ideas. I don't expect everyone to agree with me and I am glad they don't.
 
toddbishop said:
working a very creatively-limiting gig.....
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Not really on topic, but IMO gigs not creatively limiting, that would be a musician issue.

Blues is a good example. Most, if not nearly all the time..... the drummer is supporting, keeping time. There are definite restraints. Does that mean that creativity is restrained? Only for people who give up easily. Any musician worth their salt will find a way to be musically creative even when they are tightly bound.
 
jeffwj said:
For those who are in favor of open handed playing, I wonder what your feelings are about remote hi-hats.
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I never really thought about playing open handed in the proper sense, ie: playing the left hand side hi-hat with the left hand.

But I had a remote hi-hat on the right hand side of the kit almost since I started drumming 35 years ago, initially the purpose of the second hat was to have a hi-hat voice while doing some double bass drums patterns.

I stop playing double bass years ago, but I still have 2 hi-hats, I play "open handed" on the right hi-hat about 50% of the time and I do the open accent on the left hi-hat with the left hand.

The hats also sounds different from each others, it's useful to create interesting patterns on the hats.

My remote hat is mounted on an X-hat from Tama which is no longer available nowadays.

It has become so natural I would have some trouble playing with just one hi-hat.
 
Red Menace said:
I wish there was a more affordable remote hihat available, something that I could mount above my bass drum. I would love to try open handed playing but I wouldn't want to switch to left hand lead.

If I switched to left hand lead that means I would have to play with matched grip and my left hand matched is terrible.
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This is where I am too.

I've played open handed a few times just so the right hand could play the toms throughout the groove. But to spend any significant amount of time on it would probably necessitate giving up my left hand trad grip. I am not at all ready to do that. There are many other things I would rather focus on during my practice time.

I did used to have a right side x-hat but I haven't used it in years. It just doesn't seem to like a need in jazz and traditional blues.
 
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