how to use Stick Control

CJM

Member
How do people use it? how do teachers recommend using it? Stone says do each exercise 20 times and move on. But at what speeds should you be proficient before moving on?
 
My teacher had me focus on one half of a page per week.

Goal was to do them all at the same tempo. So just set the metronome to whereever you are comfortable and gradually raise the tempo.

The rigid thing about 20 times each is a little silly. I'm a drummer. I can't count that high. :)
 
Hi
I did the whole book about 40 years ago(it took over 3 years)...I currently use it for myself and students as follows:
Half note equals 90 BPM(slower tempo for students)
Page 1
Read the Line
Then follow with 4 rights and then 4 lefts
Next
Page 1
Read the line
Then follow with 8 rights and then 8 lefts
Next
Read the line
Then follow with 16 rights and then 16 lefts

Next pass
Page 1
Read the line and play single stroke 16th note roll to a 5 count

Next pass
Read the line and play double stroke roll.

Then I finish my warm up with 16th note single stroke roll...half note equals 90BPM. 1st with a right start and then with a left.
Denis
 
My teacher had me focus on one half of a page per week.

Goal was to do them all at the same tempo. So just set the metronome to whereever you are comfortable and gradually raise the tempo.

The rigid thing about 20 times each is a little silly. I'm a drummer. I can't count that high. :)

Welcome to Drummerworld. I see you're new here, but please use the search function to keep things uncluttered. There is a thread already created with 296 posts on the subject.

http://drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17751&highlight=stick+conrol

Stone did write "20 times" for a reason. Endurance is a key element as is control.
 
Welcome to Drummerworld. I see you're new here, but please use the search function to keep things uncluttered. There is a thread already created with 296 posts on the subject.

http://drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17751&highlight=stick+conrol

Stone did write "20 times" for a reason. Endurance is a key element as is control.


I did do a search, which resulted in a superfluity of information, when I wanted to know specifically about tempos.

Perhaps you should have taken jazzsnob's suggestion?
"This is an awesome thread, and I hope it gets stickied."

Good day.
 
Stone did write "20 times" for a reason. Endurance is a key element as is control.

Yes, and as Jeff knows twenty was the minimum. I'm only getting into it after twenty 'minutes.' :)
 
I don't know exactly why you singled me out, Jeff. I didn't create the thread; I simply responded to it.

I don't focus on the number of times I do the rudiments. I do them until they sound pretty. It could be 2, 20 or 200. I just do it until it sounds tight and I don't have to think about it.
 
I don't know exactly why you singled me out, Jeff. I didn't create the thread; I simply responded to it.

I don't focus on the number of times I do the rudiments. I do them until they sound pretty. It could be 2, 20 or 200. I just do it until it sounds tight and I don't have to think about it.

I reread my reply and it did seem like the whole comment was for you. I apologize for the misunderstanding. CJM's question was "how do you use it" so the first part of my reply was for CJM. And that's why I said welcome to a new member.

As Ken pointed out (we both studied with Morello, a student of Stone) twenty times can just be the beginning. Stone stressed to Morello that control + endurance = speed. That is why many of Joe's exercises keep adding repetitions. You can use the repetitions as a gauge just as you can use tempo markings as a gauge. Maybe one day you can play an exercise ten times without feeling tension. A few days later you can do the exercise (at the same tempo) 15 times without stopping. I was just pointing out that tempo is not the only way to track improvement.

Jeff
 
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How do people use it? how do teachers recommend using it? Stone says do each exercise 20 times and move on. But at what speeds should you be proficient before moving on?

Adding to what Jeff and Ken have said, I've also studied with a student of Stone: Ray Reilly, formerly of the Toronto Symphony Orchestra. The book says 20 times, but Stone had his students do the exercises for much longer - i.e. as long as 5 minutes or more. Tempos and volumes were to be "moderate" at the beginning, but increased according to the facility of the individual. Strive for eveness of sound and fluidity of motion. One can also incorporate sound/stick levels, practicing from a vertical position, a half position and from a tap position as low as 3/8 of an inch depending on the needs of the player and the application.

So, in regards to tempo, start easy and work your way up according to capacity. If you can play the exercise with complete relaxation and control, then bump up the tempo. Only you can decide whether you're satisfied with your velocity or not.
 
My teacher had me focus on one half of a page per week.

Goal was to do them all at the same tempo. So just set the metronome to whereever you are comfortable and gradually raise the tempo.

The rigid thing about 20 times each is a little silly. I'm a drummer. I can't count that high. :)

Me neither. I gotta count 12/8 like

1 2 3 2 2 3 3 2 3 4 2 um..wait.. Q:)

--

I spend time every night before I go to bed working on my hands. About 15 minutes.
I find it good to do what is comfortable. There is a point of diminishing return.. time to stop. If I go for an hour and feel improvement and I'm jazzed about it, I'll keep going. A lot of it also has to do with your emotional state too. If I start getting frustrated because of something that was working well yesterday isn't today, I put my sticks down and walk away.

I would rather take twice as long and get three times better than complete it in half the time. And, the more time spent at the beginning and getting that stuff down is really what accelerates the exercises that follow, because they are designed, not to just build off of prior knowledge, but more importantly they build off of the ability that you have attained.

In other words, The more effective you become at step one, not only will you learn step two faster, but, the more efficient/effective you will be at step two...
 
One thing that you can do to really help build up your weaker hand is to play every note with the weak hand and play the other hand only where it is designated on the line you are working on.
For example if the line looked like: LRLR LRLR LRLR LRLR, and let's say your weaker hand was your left hand, you would play every note with your left hand in a vamp but with your right hand you'd only play the notes marked R. Everywhere there is an R you will actually be playing both hands at the same time.
Play at a slow tempo and gradually work your way up in speed.
 
Has anyone played each rhythm at the same tempo or played each one at slow, fast, then slow tempos? Which has the most success with improving stick control?
 
I am currently on my first pass at this book and have been doing it this way.

I did the first section (single beat, triplets, rolls etc) at 120 bpm. That tempo is well within my level but my concentration is on control so i tried to work on even strokes and making them sound consistent.

When I got to the flam beats section...120 is not within my level! So i pegged it back to 80bpm. Again i concentrated on control and even strokes. I also tried to make my flams 'look good'. By this I mean that the dominant note (right in a right flam etc) comes up higher than the ghost/low note.
The 20 thing flew out of the window with this mainly because I found my self messing up when I was trying to count and play the challenging exercises so I did each of them for 2 minutes each. Even at 40bpm I still do 20 reps.

This section of the book is awesome!!! It really has helped control and my left flams are more comfortable.

I am now on the short rolls in 6/8. Again I am doing it at 80bpm and each exercise for 2mins.

I have been at it since the 14th of July.

This seems to be working so far as my control has improved which is the point.

when I come back to this book (i think i am going to do accents and rebounds after i have got to the end.) I will probably work on speed and go through the first page and the 3rd page ( 8ths then 16ths) at different tempos. Building it each day.

Cheers

Dave
 
When I got to the flam beats section...120 is not within my level! So i pegged it back to 80bpm. Again i concentrated on control and even strokes. I also tried to make my flams 'look good'. By this I mean that the dominant note (right in a right flam etc) comes up higher than the ghost/low note.

Resurrecting an old thread. Dave, you're on the right track here. One student of Stone's I know says, "Stone always demonstrated the Flam & Drags alternately, and sidewyas using 18" and 2" heights." (emphasis mine) Ray also says to remember that the heights are "serving suggestions", and not meant to be adhered to 100% strictly. However, what he's getting at - as I understand it - is that the Flam Beats should be played paying close attention to stick heights (Lifts and Levels, Stone used to call it). The other thing is that with Flams, the stick height helps you play the rudiment. If two trains head to the same station at the same speed from different distances....well, you get the point. So if you can get both hands to play reasonably together, a little stick height action will give you your Flam sound.
 
Resurrecting an old thread. Dave, you're on the right track here. One student of Stone's I know says, "Stone always demonstrated the Flam & Drags alternately, and sidewyas using 18" and 2" heights." (emphasis mine) Ray also says to remember that the heights are "serving suggestions", and not meant to be adhered to 100% strictly. However, what he's getting at - as I understand it - is that the Flam Beats should be played paying close attention to stick heights (Lifts and Levels, Stone used to call it). The other thing is that with Flams, the stick height helps you play the rudiment. If two trains head to the same station at the same speed from different distances....well, you get the point. So if you can get both hands to play reasonably together, a little stick height action will give you your Flam sound.

BTW, I always practice everything in Stick Controll and Accents & rebounds with 3 different heights, but I have been thinking, what about flams? You can of course have the main note on whatever height you want but could you play the grace (?) note from different height also? For example grace note at half stroke height and main stroke at full stroke height. Of course if it doesn't sound good you wouldn't have to use it when you actually play but this is purely from control practice point of view. So any use for that or is it just a waste of time?
 
BTW, I always practice everything in Stick Controll and Accents & rebounds with 3 different heights, but I have been thinking, what about flams? You can of course have the main note on whatever height you want but could you play the grace (?) note from different height also? For example grace note at half stroke height and main stroke at full stroke height. Of course if it doesn't sound good you wouldn't have to use it when you actually play but this is purely from control practice point of view. So any use for that or is it just a waste of time?

Of course you can. Ray Reilly had me do the grace notes from a low height - as indicated by the way they're written. Stylistically, the concept was to have them add colour and/or breadth to the primary note, not to be points of emphasis in and of themselves.

This is all topical for me because I received a brand-spanking new copy of Stick Control for Christmas to replace my old, dog-eared, cover-missing, staples-falling-out one. Anyway, prompted by this great gift, I started working through the book again, and decided to start with the Flam Beats section. For me, right now, I'm trying to work on my relaxation and low volume control, so I'm doing them with the grace notes about 1" off the drum and the primary notes 3" most of the time. The key is to apply the stuff to your needs.
 
Of course you can. Ray Reilly always had me do the grace notes from a low height - as indicated by the way they're written. Stylistically, the concept was to have them add colour and/or breadth to the primary note, not to be points of emphasis in and of themselves.

This is all topical for me because I received a brand-spanking new copy of Stick Control for Christmas to replace my old, dog-eared, cover-missing, staples-falling-out one. Anyway, prompted by this great gift, I started working through the book again, and decided to start with the Flam Beats section. For me, right now, I'm trying to work on my relaxation and low volume control, so I'm doing them with the grace notes about 1" off the drum and the primary notes 3" most of the time. The key is to apply the stuff to your needs.

Hehe, nice, I'm also right now going through a wave of flam patterns in SC. I have been going with full stroke height for the main note and 1"-2" for the grace note. 1 page per week. I'm on the last page now with this "wave". Then I'm coming to these same patterns again with my half stroke wave. =) Fun patterns for sure and takes a lot of concentration but also the benefits are great.

But what really has had made my control better is practicing accent & rebounds accent patterns with three different height combinations: half->full, low->full and low->half. I first practiced those too going from low strokes to accent with full strokes but I noticed I couldn't do any of the other combos with proper control. Then I started practicing those also and my hands are really beginning to relax. It's a great feeling. I just have to say I love these books, it's an every day adventure. =) (needless to say, my practice routine with these books alone takes quite some time)
 
You guys are inspiring me to start going through that book again after 30 years.
 
You guys are inspiring me to start going through that book again after 30 years.

It's a gift that just keeps on giving. I received a new copy for Xmas to replace my 25-year old one that was being held together by luck and prayer for the past couple of years.

That lead me to dive in deep again, and I have to say that the more I work with it, the more I reinforce my opinion that there are too many drum books on the market. With a little creativity it'll do the job of half of them, and all for just a few bucks...
 
It's a gift that just keeps on giving. I received a new copy for Xmas to replace my 25-year old one that was being held together by luck and prayer for the past couple of years.

That lead me to dive in deep again, and I have to say that the more I work with it, the more I reinforce my opinion that there are too many drum books on the market. With a little creativity it'll do the job of half of them, and all for just a few bucks...

Yeah and quite seriously, if you manage to pull off every excercise there is in SC and A&R with varying dynamic levels and tempos (without and with metronome) like Stone suggests without breaking your hands, your technique can't be far from optimal =P

I mean at the end of A&R there are these excercises with accents and rolls and buzzes, go try to do those with improper technique. =P

Yup, I'm in love with these books. Can't wait to see how my hand look 10 or 20 years from now.
 
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