Tactical Approach Tips Needed !!!!!

Witterings

Silver Member
Don't know if anybody can think of best way to approach a situation I currently have but a band I'm playing in, the bass player is oblivious to time and keeps rushing absolutely everything. He's always a millisecond ahead of everyone else and speeds up with every transition from verse to chorus and chorus back to verse again.

I think he's trying to put too much in and do some great flash runs but as a result he knows it needs to be played fast and feels under pressure before he starts them thinking I'm not going to get all this in in time and so ends up playing every single run much too quickly and ahead of time as a result and is constantly bringing the tempo up.

It's getting to the stage that it's such hard work it's actually quite unpleasant to play to as it feels as though I'm was constantly fighting with his playing and trying to work out where he is in relation to me and my whole concentration is on that making it a tense
un-enjoyable experience as opposed to a relaxed enjoyable experience and as I play for pleasure as opposed to earnings it's turning what should be fun into really hard work.

He's a really lovely guy and as a band we all get on really well together and go out for beers etc after rehearsal and it's on my doorstep. The last thing I want to do is upset him / be too critical of playing but I feel like screaming at him haven't you realised you should be playing with the other memers of the band and have some awareness where they are but I think he's just oblivious.
When I was at school I used to play in lots of orchestras and it was constantly hammered into me that the conductors there for a reason and if you weren't in time with him got a complete bollocking so from a young age became aware of where others were and the importance of playing together.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not inafallable nor perfect and do start songs at the wrong tempo but if I'm playing a song too slow or too quick all I need is a nod or shake of the head to bring the tempo up or down accordingly and then we move together as a band but he just doesn't seem to hold back on any song ever and yet could be a great player if his timing was sorted.

I've mentioned it to the vocalist who's band it is and he agrees with me and I was hoping he may say something but sometimes his way of dealing with things is to stick his head in the sand and hope it goes away.

I think I'm also very aware of it as I've played with bass players where we've been abosolutely 100% locked in together which then totally reinforces what you're doing as opposed to pulling it apart at the seams and creates a great foundation.

If anybody has any idea how to deal with this tactfully and without creating an upset would be much appreciated, I don't just want to walk in and say - hey maybe you should listen to where the drums are occassionally and then maybe you could see if you could play a couple of your notes at approximately the same time as them but it's that bad it's what I really feel like saying.

Sorry a complete rant by me and I hope it doesn't come across as me just laying into him but I think it's an accumulation of weeks of feeling like it and eventually the bubble bursts. I've mentioned diplomatically time after we're playing songs too quick and speeding up during them and then everbody gives me this look of - well isn't it the drummers job to keep time - it's just got to that point of frustration that I could throw the towel in as I don't know quite how to resolve it and yet for the reasons mentioned and the fact they're a great bunch of guys I don't really want to give it up.

Any useful idea's and lessons in diplomacy much appreciated as I know sometimes I can be a bit of a bull in a China shop !!!
 
Are you guys listening to recordings of your stuff. It may be your job to keep time, but it takes more than one to sound tight.
 
Say it like you'd like to hear it, if it were you. You'd probably like respect, honesty, kindness, and a solution to work with. Like a metronome during practices, for instance.
 
Replies to replies posted so far.
Yes we've recorded a few months ago and it was a HUGE kick up our backsides bt it seems those have been forgotten since and I think the others would rather brush it under the carpet to a degree but personaly I'd rather record every single one - you learn from hearing your mistakes !!!
So if I get a metronome how do we work with that, I regularily do with me e-kit when practicing but how do you do it with a fill band / acoustic kit so that everyone can hear it or do you get one of the old fasioned ones you that have the arm that swings from side to side and we all watch it ??????
 
Replies to replies posted so far.
Yes we've recorded a few months ago and it was a HUGE kick up our backsides bt it seems those have been forgotten since and I think the others would rather brush it under the carpet to a degree but personaly I'd rather record every single one - you learn from hearing your mistakes !!!
So if I get a metronome how do we work with that, I regularily do with me e-kit when practicing but how do you do it with a fill band / acoustic kit so that everyone can hear it or do you get one of the old fasioned ones you that have the arm that swings from side to side and we all watch it ??????


he needs to practice alone with the met....

then later just you and the bass player get together and time up.....its all about putting the work in

you will get results trust me

sounds to me like he needs to learn to listen......we all need to know how to listen before we can play

the metronome will be the wake up cal he needs.......
 
Here's my highly technical tactical approach:

Get him drunk. Have a heart to heart.
 
I've always considered the musical relationship between drums and bass to be paramount to a tight band. The drummer and bass player....the rhythm section, must be on the same page. I have always considered my bass players to be my "right hand man". The two just have to gel in order to be tight.

Every sloppy band I've ever seen, fell over primarily due to the drums and bass wandering all over the place and all over each other. A solid, tight rhythm section sets the foundation of any band. If there's no foundation, there's no solid band IMHO. The rhythm section MUST give everyone else a stable base to launch from.

That said, I'd have a quiet chat to him, address the issues and see what he makes of it. Some time alone with a metronome certainly isn't gonna hurt him and should be encouraged. But personally, I'd do as Moonie suggested and get in a bit of one on one drum and bass time. It's amazing how easily faults are identified when you strip everything back to bare bones and it can be much easier to remedy when he has nothing to concentrate on but locking into your groove.

Well worth a try. :)
 
I like the metronome idea. It's perfect and shouldn't even be threatening to him. Here's how you do it:

You get the metronome going in your headphones only. You can present the idea to the band that you're trying to do some general time calibrating so you're not singling out the bass player. But, then he MUST follow you because you can no longer budge. If the wheels come off, then you both know where the blame lies - that he's not playing with you like he should be (and should have been all along) and it should become painfully obvious when he can't pull you around with his rushed noodling that he's the one that needs to adjust his playing. Chances are good that that will settle him down and tighten everybody up.

Some people will resist playing with a metronome, and it may be uncomfortable at first, but you can assure them that it's just for practice purposes and won't be used for live shows or recordings unless everybody decides they actually like it.

You might have a side conversation with the other band members so they get the idea of what you're trying to do - you don't want them undermining your efforts to fix the situation if they happen to be in the anti-metronome camp.
 
Heart to heart talk and a metronome. Then you two should learn some Motown grooves to get solid.

A guitarist I played with used to say "Time isn't a skill you put on a resume as a musician, time is a prerequisite!"
 
Don't know if anybody can think of best way to approach a situation I currently have but a band I'm playing in, the bass player is oblivious to time and keeps rushing absolutely everything. He's always a millisecond ahead of everyone else and speeds up with every transition from verse to chorus and chorus back to verse again.

I think he's trying to put too much in and do some great flash runs but as a result he knows it needs to be played fast and feels under pressure before he starts them thinking I'm not going to get all this in in time and so ends up playing every single run much too quickly and ahead of time as a result and is constantly bringing the tempo up.

Are you able to lock-up with him when he's playing simple time? It could be that he's just inexperienced and hasn't put in the practice time that would allow him to play with confidence and not rush the equivalent of a fill. If you can't lock up with him when he's playing simple time, even a metronome may not help. Some people just don't play in time (even with substantial practice). I've played with some very good bass players over the years, and only now have come to appreciate just how good they were. I totally understand the frustration you're feeling having been there recently. Keep recording your rehearsals and make sure he listens to them. Over a few weeks, the recordings will also serve as proof of progress or lack thereof. I wouldn't wait until you're ready to explode to talk to him.
 
Witt, I have a similar issue - and our bassist is also a lovely guy. I've given him a friendly ragging at times. The fact is that his time feel is different to mine, more on top of the beat. Our singer tends to monster the beat too, and the keys player usually seems to be in a rush to get to the end of the song as quickly as possible. The guitarist just wavers. Come to think of it, I probably should point that out to our bassist and see if being conscious of our different sensibilities makes a difference.

If I go with the flow, every song will speed up. If everyone speeds together things at least sound clean, so I wait until the more intense moments of a song before taking off the brakes. I do find it challenging. This is the first band I've been in where I sound like I'm dragging, which is kind of annoying because I'm more inclined to rush than drag myself - it's all relative, I guess.

The fact is that bassists have a lot more space between notes than we do since we usually bridge the accents with the hats or ride. So, unless they have great time, the natural tendency is to rush a bit, especially with the adrenaline of gigs. You need to get the bassist's attention and visually remind him to stick with you, which isn't easy if you're an introverted drummer like me.

My answer is that our singer and I have been chatting with a guitarist to see if we can hook up as a second group. That way we'll have at least one band with fairly clean time :)
 
I've always considered the musical relationship between drums and bass to be paramount to a tight band. The drummer and bass player....the rhythm section, must be on the same page. I have always considered my bass players to be my "right hand man". The two just have to gel in order to be tight.

Every sloppy band I've ever seen, fell over primarily due to the drums and bass wandering all over the place and all over each other. A solid, tight rhythm section sets the foundation of any band. If there's no foundation, there's no solid band IMHO. The rhythm section MUST give everyone else a stable base to launch from.

That said, I'd have a quiet chat to him, address the issues and see what he makes of it. Some time alone with a metronome certainly isn't gonna hurt him and should be encouraged. But personally, I'd do as Moonie suggested and get in a bit of one on one drum and bass time. It's amazing how easily faults are identified when you strip everything back to bare bones and it can be much easier to remedy when he has nothing to concentrate on but locking into your groove.

Well worth a try. :)

absolutely....get the drums and bass going on their own... its amazing what will pop out.....

Ive always called it "the engine room"
 
absolutely....get the drums and bass going on their own... its amazing what will pop out.....

Ive always called it "the engine room"

"Engine room" indeed......it can either be a 2-stroke lawn mower......or a super charged V8 and it's all dependant on how the players gel together.

I can recall numerous examples where one of my bass players and I just weren't quite 'clicking' as we were rehearsing something new. He'd simply wander over close to me and poor all his concentration into watching my right foot. Problem solved....usually almost immediately. And so simple too. If that didn't work, then we slaved away outside of band rehearsal, one on one and got it sorted then.

In all the great bands, there seems to be a special understanding between the drummer and bassist. Good enough for them, then good enough for me, I reckon. Two guys on exactly the same page works wonders in having everyone else fall in suit too. Safety in numbers, I used to call it. :)
 
A lot of great ideas here!! Personally, since I've become more serious with my playing, my metronome has become my new best friend. I'd suggest you take the time to find the sweet spot on all your songs (bpm) and write them down for your bassist.

Give him a friendly razzing about being in a hurry to belly-up to the bar. You can also throw in a sentimental notion about being the rhythm section of the band and the better you two are in sync (not to be confused with N*sync!!) the better the band will sound as a whole *sniffle*. Give him a metronome and the sheet with the bpm's for each song and give him a week or so to run through the songs with the metronome. The more you two work on your musical relationship (drinking to improve personal relationships is optional) the closer you should be and get tighter in the process.

Good luck to you.

AJ
 
Thanks to all for the input / comments, it has got to the stage that something does need to be done, I think as quite a few have suggested it's time to get a metronome going and just use it under the "lets get the right tempos going" as opposed to pointing fingers at him and at least see how that works out.
If you don't see me posting for a while you'll know I used the less tactfull approach and he's trodden on my fingers so won't be able to drum or type :)
 
We used to record everything,then playback while having a couple of beers right after rehearsal or listen to it in the car on the way home.The tale of the tape doesn't lie.No excuses,no thats not me.It was all really friendly,and no ego's were bruised...well not usually.

Steve B
 
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