Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

Personally I would feel funny being on the receiving end of a gesture like that. I think that qualifies as an ingrained sexist attitude that I hold doors open and the like. But that's OK to do that, no one has any issues with that part. So there's good sexist and bad sexist. Double standard. Doesn't sit well with me. Equal is equal.

Myself, when it comes to the sexes, I don't want perfectly equal.

I do want perfectly equal, but not necessarily exactly the same.

I also feel uncomfortable being on the receiving end of chivalrous gestures. I appreciate being helped if I'm struggling with something heavy, for example, but if it's something I can carry easily, I'd rather do it myself. Hell, Mr Madge watches me load and unload Marilyn every week. If I couldn't manage, I hope he'd help me, but I can so he doesn't, and he has never offered to. That's probably because he doesn't realise what a ball-acher it is: other musicians always offer to help me, and I always accept - and I always offer to help them too, and they always accept as well. But it has nothing to do with chivalry and everything to do with common courtesy.

Funny(ish) story: many years ago, when "nice girls" didn't drink pints, I was in the pub and asked for a pint and a half of lager, the pint being for Mr Madge. The barman asked "Is the half for a lady?" Completely at a loss, I replied without even thinking "No, it's for me." Which just about sums me up, I reckon!
 
I do want perfectly equal, but not necessarily exactly the same.

Maybe I would have an easier time with this comment if the term perfectly equal was substituted with the term equivalent. Perfectly equal connotates exactly the same in every way, in my mind anyway. Equivalent has more wiggle room.
 
Maybe I would have an easier time with this comment if the term perfectly equal was substituted with the term equivalent. Perfectly equal connotates exactly the same in every way, in my mind anyway. Equivalent has more wiggle room.

Mmhmm, I think I can get behind "equivalent" pretty well, as long as it doesn't have that feeling of "nearly-but-not-quite" which it sometimes has.
 
In an ideal world, according to me anyway, men and women get paid equally, get equal respect, but men still treat women like princesses, and women prefer that to being treated exactly as one of the guys. Like if I punch a male friend in the arm really hard, just messing around, like guys do sometimes, then if equality is truly desired, it shouldn't matter that I blacken a woman's arm while just horsing around. But it does. You can't do that and I don't think it will ever be OK to do that. But it's OK....bonding even....for guys. There will never be true equality across the board. But the areas where women are held back with less pay for the same work, yea those areas need to be updated badly.

I agree with you Larry. As a a person of the female persuasion, I enjoy the little "perks" that come with that. I'm a sucker for a man that opens doors for me and treats me "like a lady". In the workplace, if I'm doing the same job, yes, I should get equal pay, etc. Equality definitely has it's place but I think some uber-feminists take it too far. What's wrong with being a girly girl? Men and women are different, that's a fact...it's what makes life interesting, no?

I'm a drummer, I ride motorcycles, and enjoy being one of the guys every so often. BUT, if we're being completely honest here, I also like being noticed as the female drummer or motorcyclist. It's a little unusual and I like that people notice it as long as they do it respectfully. You know, don't call me a "biker babe" but tell me it's cool that I ride a bike. I can even say, I like feeling a little special here at DW because I am one of the few females drummers here (although the number seems to be growing which is great!).
I guess maybe I'm greedy and want the best of both worlds :)
 
I agree with you Larry. As a a person of the female persuasion, I enjoy the little "perks" that come with that. I'm a sucker for a man that opens doors for me and treats me "like a lady". In the workplace, if I'm doing the same job, yes, I should get equal pay, etc. Equality definitely has it's place but I think some uber-feminists take it too far. What's wrong with being a girly girl? Men and women are different, that's a fact...it's what makes life interesting, no?

I'm a drummer, I ride motorcycles, and enjoy being one of the guys every so often. BUT, if we're being completely honest here, I also like being noticed as the female drummer or motorcyclist. It's a little unusual and I like that people notice it as long as they do it respectfully. You know, don't call me a "biker babe" but tell me it's cool that I ride a bike. I can even say, I like feeling a little special here at DW because I am one of the few females drummers here (although the number seems to be growing which is great!).
I guess maybe I'm greedy and want the best of both worlds :)[/QUOTE]

And why not? I open the door, If I am there first, for Mrs M, and why not? I often hold a door open for anyone coming into somewhere behind me, Its the way I was brought up. Good manners and a respectfull attitude cost nothing. If someone fails to thank me or I find they are not deserving of respect then they wont get helped again.

I will carry a heavy shoping bag for my wife, not cos she is helpless but because It pleases me. If she refuses well thats not a problem, but I do ask cos its in my nature.
 
In my house, we're all equal until the pickle jar lid gets stuck closed. In that case, I'm superior.
 
I heard a little anecdote once.

Man opens a door for woman.

"You don't have to open the door just because I'm lady!"

"I didn't, ma'am. I opened it because I am a gentleman."
 
In my house, we're all equal until the pickle jar lid gets stuck closed. In that case, I'm superior.

You crack me up man. Is this a metaphor? Interesting that you chose pickle in a sexist thread. Your Fruedian slip is showing lol.
 
The Great Internet Tsunami of 2014 swallowed up a bunch of posts which related to how transgender people are treated, which makes this story relevant.

The story linked has the additional relevance of having drummer content.
 
Hey James...

I find your avatar a little sexist...in the most Christmasy, festive, kind of way....
:p
 
Hey James...

I find your avatar a little sexist...in the most Christmasy, festive, kind of way....
:p

b45fb6d673a2f967bf91f6cfda3e0a071912172488f574fdf313ff189cdd2ca7.jpg
 
You crack me up man. Is this a metaphor? Interesting that you chose pickle in a sexist thread. Your Fruedian slip is showing lol.

Quite literal, though I don't mind if you infer a metaphorical meaning as well. To needlessly expand on this, I was going to say "mayo jar", but I remember reading recently that a lot of the world doesn't use mayo for anything, and my internal dialog decided that pickle jars might be a more universal struggle for the world.

I usually think it's hilarious when she tries to open a stubborn jar for 10 minutes, finally relents and gives it to me, and it takes me 2 seconds to twist that lid off.
 
Quite literal, though I don't mind if you infer a metaphorical meaning as well. To needlessly expand on this, I was going to say "mayo jar", but I remember reading recently that a lot of the world doesn't use mayo for anything, and my internal dialog decided that pickle jars might be a more universal struggle for the world.

I usually think it's hilarious when she tries to open a stubborn jar for 10 minutes, finally relents and gives it to me, and it takes me 2 seconds to twist that lid off.

I know what mayo is, and what it's used for.

And I know what pickle is (Branston) or -s are (gherkin), and where you would use them.

But I've never seen a jar of stubborn, and not sure I'd want to open it.

Is that something like a can of whoop-ass?
 
I usually think it's hilarious when she tries to open a stubborn jar for 10 minutes, finally relents and gives it to me, and it takes me 2 seconds to twist that lid off.

Well sure, after she's loosened it for you...
..
 
I heard a little anecdote once.

Man opens a door for woman.

"You don't have to open the door just because I'm lady!"

"I didn't, ma'am. I opened it because I am a gentleman."

And why not? I open the door, If I am there first, for Mrs M, and why not? I often hold a door open for anyone coming into somewhere behind me, Its the way I was brought up. Good manners and a respectfull attitude cost nothing. If someone fails to thank me or I find they are not deserving of respect then they wont get helped again.

Open the door because you're a nice person. Chivalry is horsecrap, but it doesn't mean you can't be a nice person.

I am not taking a pop at you but you stated,

"treating females less well than men is subtle but automatic thing in most people,"

And I simply dont agree with that. There are sexist men out there but I dont believe its a cultural thing anymore. I believe its as someone already posted, that some people are biggoted and narrow minded not just sexist, It seems to go with the type.

Being sexist works both ways, there are a couple of women I know, my youngest daughter is one, who are starting to take the femenist line a bit too far, almost to the point of female = good, male = bad. Now in my mind that thought process has nothing to do with equality.

This is an issue of misogyny, which is a cultural construction designed to subjugate women into submission, it's not the same thing as sexism. I'm not even going to try to unpack your last paragraph, but if you haven't noticed microaggressions against women in your daily life, well, ignorance is bliss. Women are confronted with it our whole lives, so please don't try to refute our statements about it.


Good article linked by James, though I think it's important to note that though that person is gender-fluid/transgender, don't take the pronoun usage in that article to mean that y'all can just misgender a person all you want and they won't be angry at you. Please ask the person if you have the slightest inclination that anybody may not be the gender you assign to them, misgendering is a seriously destructive thing.
 
Good article linked by James, though I think it's important to note that though that person is gender-fluid/transgender, don't take the pronoun usage in that article to mean that y'all can just misgender a person all you want and they won't be angry at you. Please ask the person if you have the slightest inclination that anybody may not be the gender you assign to them, misgendering is a seriously destructive thing.

"Seriously destructive"?

I'm sorry, I'm having trouble keeping a straight face reading some of these posts. I find this misrepresentation of severity to be severely destructive to this thread ;=)
 
"Seriously destructive"?

I'm sorry, I'm having trouble keeping a straight face reading some of these posts. I find this misrepresentation of severity to be severely destructive to this thread ;=)

Porter has a point.

Gender identification is a big, big deal to a lot of people. If you had spent your entire life struggling with your gender identity and eventually concluded that you identified as female only for the male pronoun to be used by others by assumption then it can be deeply upsetting.

Case in point. I met a lady that was at the early stages of physical transition. To have used the male pronoun in that instance could have been very upsetting, seeing as the person in question had only recently publicly admitted that their gender identity was female. In that instance, it was a large part of a newly-forming identity. I did get it wrong because of my inexperience but I was trying to get my head around it and not because I wasn't curious and interested - it was a slip because of my preconceived notions and bias that I have subsequently corrected and worked hard on. The others around me were very understanding because it was something that I hadn't come across much before.

It's different for everybody, as with many things but it's the assumption of knowledge by others that's the issue.
 
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Porter has a point.

She does indeed, and not for the first time.

FOF Duncan's post below, one of my transgender friends (who hasn't completed transition yet) had an experience the other day which upset her considerably. She was having a drink with a friend, when a complete stranger came up to her and declared "I had no idea you were a man until I heard you speak."

That is ignorance and bad manners combined, in my view.
 
In my experience, the worst thing to do when you're unsure about somebody's gender identity is to simply assume you know how they identify. Some people would be open to discuss it, some won't but it's the assumption that's most harmful. It's always better to ask than to assume. In my experience, most transgender individuals will let you know what is appropriate if you're unsure - especially during transition when it might not be obvious to an outsider.

Learning gender-neutral pronouns and language can also be very helpful if you are unsure, certainly until you know.

Of course, some people won't wish to discuss it and that's absolutely their right. I've always been of the opinion though that curiosity always beats ignorance and if you are curious, then you're much more likely to have engaging discussions with anybody about anything and get it right.
 
Open the door because you're a nice person. Chivalry is horsecrap, but it doesn't mean you can't be a nice person.



This is an issue of misogyny, which is a cultural construction designed to subjugate women into submission, it's not the same thing as sexism. I'm not even going to try to unpack your last paragraph, but if you haven't noticed microaggressions against women in your daily life, well, ignorance is bliss. Women are confronted with it our whole lives, so please don't try to refute our statements about it.


Good article linked by James, though I think it's important to note that though that person is gender-fluid/transgender, don't take the pronoun usage in that article to mean that y'all can just misgender a person all you want and they won't be angry at you. Please ask the person if you have the slightest inclination that anybody may not be the gender you assign to them, misgendering is a seriously destructive thing.


Not refuting anything, merely stating my point of view that most sexist males are also biggoted and narrow minded, not just sexist.

"Ignorance is bliss"? I am married, to a woman, I have a mother, a sister and two daughters, one of them is very much an active feminist so I have 60 + years experience of life and female perspective. Assuming that because I am a man I have no idea what it is like, because I am not a woman, is frankly patronising and not helpfull to the cause of equality.
 
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