question about shallow kick drums

beatsMcGee

Pioneer Member
This is probably going to sound like a dumb question, but I'll ask anyway... Ive really grown fond of the idea of a shallower kick drum for many reason, but one of the main ones is portability.

Anywho, I've been listening to a lot of live performances in which a shallower kick drum is used, and Ive noticed that the kick drum seems a lot less noticable in the mix compared to ones with a deeper depth. Is this more of a mic'ing coincidence, or is there something to the fact that the note doesnt "carry" as long because the drum is shallower? I really like to hear a nice punchy kick drum that you can pick out in the mix.
 
If we're talking about mic'd bass drums, then mix level is completely out of the hands of the drum.

Acoustically, a shallow bass drum will generically have greater focus, fewer overtones, & less lower frequencies in the resolved sound. It's also likely to be slightly quieter than a deeper drum, but there's a ton of caveats attached to that, not least of all, shell construction, head/beater selection, & tuning.

I advise specifying a bass drum on sound criteria. If the greater focus, articulation, & attack of a shallower bass drum is for you, then go for it. I've heard deep bass drums sound thin & week, & I've heard shallow bass drums sound fat & satisfying.

My biggest peeve is drums that are offered in different depths, but without any design reference to that choice. A quality drum, where all design aspects are focussed on the resulting sound, depth being one of those elements, is a joy. Offering the same construction, in say 14" & 18" depths, shows zero understanding or recognition of the place depth has in the character of the drum.
 
This is probably going to sound like a dumb question, but I'll ask anyway... Ive really grown fond of the idea of a shallower kick drum for many reason, but one of the main ones is portability.

Anywho, I've been listening to a lot of live performances in which a shallower kick drum is used, and Ive noticed that the kick drum seems a lot less noticable in the mix compared to ones with a deeper depth. Is this more of a mic'ing coincidence, or is there something to the fact that the note doesnt "carry" as long because the drum is shallower? I really like to hear a nice punchy kick drum that you can pick out in the mix.

There are a lot of folks on here who speak of their 14 x 26 and how its quite a boom and everybody in their band hears and likes that, so I think they can certainly cut a mix. Think Led Zep. Everythign mic'ed a different story, a drum can do less or more in the mix as you choose.

As somebody who lugs a kick drum in/out of my basement once a week, I hear your point, a 14" depth (x 20) is just somehow a little easier out doorways and into any vehicle . I also prefer that depth for the focus. I'm setting up to get a 14 x 24 soon.
 
To throw my 2 cents in, my 22 x 14 Lud is both the lightest weight and loudest bass drum I own.
 
thanks for the info KIS, so it is possible that a if all elements were kept equal except depth, that a deeper drum would be louder and more easily heard verses a shallow kick.?

It might help to contribute the info that I currently play a 24x20 but am about to buy a
24x14 because im curious as to the sound it will give.
 
There are a lot of folks on here who speak of their 14 x 26 and how its quite a boom and everybody in their band hears and likes that, so I think they can certainly cut a mix. Think Led Zep. Everythign mic'ed a different story, a drum can do less or more in the mix as you choose.

As somebody who lugs a kick drum in/out of my basement once a week, I hear your point, a 14" depth (x 20) is just somehow a little easier out doorways and into any vehicle . I also prefer that depth for the focus. I'm setting up to get a 14 x 24 soon.

Don't get me wrong I LOVE bonham's playing and the sound of his kit in general, but his kick drum does have a bit more of a flabby less focused sound that I tend to not like.
 
thanks for the info KIS, so it is possible that a if all elements were kept equal except depth, that a deeper drum would be louder and more easily heard verses a shallow kick.?
All other things equal, slightly louder = yes. More easily heard = not necessarily. A deeper drum produces more overtones (both high & low). That detracts from the fundamental tone, in so much as the fundamental tone is less prominent. Part of that affect is often termed as "focus". On the flip side of the coin, those overtones give a fatter sound. Think in terms of adding a chorus effect to bass guitar. Those overtones are generally lost in an amplified band mix, but can be brought back to the fore under mic'ing. A note of caution though, close mic'ing, especially on the inside of the drum, doesn't allow those overtones to resolve with the fundamental tone to produce the full sound, thus most of the "benefits" of a deeper bass drum are often lost in PA applications. A shallower bass drum concentrates much more on the fundamental. That makes it close mic friendly in most PA applications.

Talking purely acoustic (no mic's), but in an amplified band application, all things being equal, the more shallow bass drum is likely to be more readily heard. It's tone focus occupies less frequency range, therefore it stands a better chance of finding it's own "space" in the frequency range produced by lower instruments (usually bass guitar & keys).

Of course, the previous caveats apply. Shell construction makes a big difference, both in terms of fundamental/overtone production, but also in terms of volume & projection. If near field satisfying tones are your thing, & you have the mic'ing facilities to exploit them, then a thin shell will get you there. If you're especially lucky, then a thin solid shell will get you there on steroids :) If your thing is volume & projection, then a thick shell is the way to go. Additionally, head selection & tuning then take over to fine tune the response. I aways suggest that heads & tuning should be dictated by the drum construction, & the drum construction chosen to give you the foundations to build from.

Depending on the drums design, & especially the bearing head choice, you should find the more shallow drum is much easier to dial in.

I hope that helps.
 
wow, talk about wealth of knowledge! I am going to buy a 1976 Rogers "butcher block" londoner kit that has a 24x14 bass drum. Im super excited about toying with it.

it has a PS3 on it currently, any suggestions or predictions as to how it will probably sound???

gonna pick it up on sunday hopefully
 
wow, talk about wealth of knowledge! I am going to buy a 1976 Rogers "butcher block" londoner kit that has a 24x14 bass drum. Im super excited about toying with it.

it has a PS3 on it currently, any suggestions or predictions as to how it will probably sound???

gonna pick it up on sunday hopefully
Pity the block is only a veneer :), but it should sound lovely. I don't know much about the construction. Wood species? Thickness? Rerings? Then I can take a stab for you :)
 
That Rogers drum is gonna have reinforcement rings. Rogers went to the "stadium" shell in 1978, with the XP8. So it's not going to have the projection of stadium shell design. That's one of the reasons why most all the manufactures went to the straight "stadium" shell design. Drummers wanted more projection. Loud was getting louder, as amp size grew.​
That Rogers kick is gonna sound a lot like the Bonham Ludwig 26, except it will be a little less boomy, being a 24. But, you have the advantage of many more head combo's to work with, compared to what was available in the 70's. So you have many more sound options.​
That 24 is gonna be a really nice kick. Enjoy.​
 
While we're talking about 14" depths bass drums.....
I have an 80's Gretsch gum-maple kit with a 14 x 22 bass drum and a newer 2004 Yamaha MCAN kit with thinner maple shells and a16 x 22 bass drum. Both bass drums are great sounding in their own way.

I've casually considered getting a 12 x 20 bass drum - primarily because of the real estate I'd gain on stage. One gig in particular I do is slightly uncomfortable because of the depth of the area I have to fit into. A 12" deep bass drum would give that skosh more that would help and I could move my snare and toms out a bit more. I've actually heard of some players using this (12" deep bass drums) and enjoying the sound. Some even took an existing drum and redid it to those specs. That wouldn't be my first choice though. :)


However it's just one gig, a moderate dough Top 40 gig at that so I won't probably won't do that unless I get more gigs that have a similar need, probably more coffee house/low volume stuff.

Jim
 
thanks! could you elaborate more on the "stadium" design verses what the 76' was?
 
Stadium shells are straight shells. No reinforcement rings. The Rogers XP8 (came out in 78) followed Ludwigs change to the 6 ply stadium shell in 1976. Basically all vintage drums, had thin shells (and reinforcement rings) prior to 1976-78 time frame.​
Cats who talk about the "warm, vintage sound" are referring to thin shells with reinforcement rings, usually. The one American drum maker that went straight shell, early on, was Gretsch. They formed their shells differently, and made a thin shell without reinforcement rings, in the 50's. In the late 50's, they went to a 6 ply shell, from the 3 ply shell.​
 
I've casually considered getting a 12 x 20 bass drum

Jim
12" deep 20" bass drums sound great if they were designed to be that size. Some, by default, sound great anyhow. Our new classic range within the new "Origin" series will feature a 12" deep 20" bass drum = absolutely gorgeous, & surprisingly deep, especially given the fairly hard wood choice. Bonus, it's featherweight too :)
 
I played for 10 years a Tama Rockstar 22"x16" kick drum. Last year Lignum drums re-edged the whole kit making the drum sound better then new !

The 22"x16" is quit a monster actually ... its a loud bass drum, and since the re-edging also a lot lower in sound !

Compared to my new kit, the 24"x14" isn't louder at all. The tone is about the same as the 22" bass drum. Compared with the 20", the 20" goes even to a lower note (without having a 'floppy' head).

I find the 24"x14" much more balanced than my 22" ... it has a completely different texture in sound .. much more useful (like KIS said).

I'm about to find out next week how it sounds on a venue !

If you go 24 ... I'd say go for 14" deep, works really great ;) !

Cheers.
 
I've casually considered getting a 12 x 20 bass drum - primarily because of the real estate I'd gain on stage. One gig in particular I do is slightly uncomfortable because of the depth of the area I have to fit into. A 12" deep bass drum would give that skosh more that would help and I could move my snare and toms out a bit more.
Jim
That's how you spell skosh...
 
Here are the bass drum sizes I have or have had: 28x16, 28x14, 28x10, 26x16, 26x14, 26x8, 24x16, 22x18, 22x16, 22x14, 22x10, 20x16, 20x14, 20x12, 18x16, 18x14, 18x13, 18x10, 16x12. Shallow ones naturally have more punch and immediacy. Deeper ones tend to "open up" slower and sound more boomy. Of course, shell construction has a lot to do with the sound as well.

Basically:

Shallow = punch/focus
Deep = boomy/less focus

...of course, there are those who select heads and/or muffle their deep drums to give them more punch and focus, but you lose so much of the drum/head sound when you do that.
 
22x10 thin shelled bass drum here, with Fiberskyn PS3 batter and reso [no muffling]. Wood hoops, kickport and gull wing spurs. Gibraltar/Dunnett rail mount for my 13" tom [sometimes go with a snare stand if the stage is "lumpy"] Love the punch of an 18", but the look of a 22". Playing Punk/Hard rock gigs with an 18" kick, got me a bevvy of jeers from all around. This little beauty, gives everybody what they want. It's mic'ed anyway. Featherweight to carry too!
 
the 1976 Rogers will be five ply shells with reinforcing rings, speckled gray interior Maple Birch Maple Birch Maple shell layup. Shells were produced by Keller. The XP8 Eight Ply All North American Maple shell came out in mid 1979, and were produced to very early 1984 when Rogers ceased to exist as a company.
 
I really struggle with deeper bass drums to get a good sound and a good feel where as a 14" depth bass drum bass drum is easy to get a great sound from.

I only use a felt strip on a coated emp, I have a fiberskyn powerstroke as my reso cranked up to move the air quicker thus getting rid of any flabby sounds. Works just as well with a coated amb and a felt strip.

I've always loved Joe Morello's bass drum sound he makes a 22" sound huge! Check anything from Time Out, for a 1959 recording the kit sounds amazing. Keith Carlock also has an amazing open bass drum sound.

Keep it simple also put a vid on a couple of weeks back with a 22x12 bass drum which was one of the nicest bass drums I've ever heard, spent the rest of the afternoon at work plotting how to save up for one and how to break it to the missus!
 
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