Is it OK to talk about the movie "Whiplash" yet?

Larry

Larry

"Uncle Larry"
It's been out over a month. I saw it last night. Wouldn't mind discussing some of the finer points with people who have already seen it, but I don't want to spoil it for anyone either.

So is it OK?
 
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I would go see it either way so I see no problem but that's just me.
 
Saw it last night. Really liked it. Saw it with two non-drummers ( yes, I was slumming it) and they enjoyed as much. Niotvso much a movie about drumming but, rathe, a good film with lots of interesting interplay to ponder. You're left wondering if what you assumed was wrong is maybe right on many levels. Simmons is awesome.
 
I wanted to hear people's opinions as to whether or not Fletcher's teaching style, if it was real life, was something he should have got kicked out for.

I also wondered what people think of the line in the movie (paraphrasing)...."Good Job" is one of the most damaging things you can say to a musician. (Complacency, I guess is the reason)

To those who haven't seen it yet this teacher teaches by fear, intimidation, and downright nastiness. As opposed to supportive and positive.
 
And just when you think Fletcher is a complete asshole for his final stunt you are left wondering if the whole scam was all part of his plan to motivate the kid to rise to the top.
 
larryace said:
To those who haven't seen it yet this teacher teaches by fear, intimidation, and downright nastiness. As opposed to supportive and positive.
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Teaching by fear, intimidation, nastiness...etc. ? IMO that is totally a stupid, uber-ego, power trip and ineffective. It doesn't work, in sports either.

Not seen the movie yet but saw the trailer and that 'good job' line. They did a good job making him look like an arsehole.
 
larryace said:
I wanted to hear people's opinions as to whether or not Fletcher's teaching style, if it was real life, was something he should have got kicked out for.

I also wondered what people think of the line in the movie (paraphrasing)...."Good Job" is one of the most damaging things you can say to a musician. (Complacency, I guess is the reason)
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My musician and teacher friends have been discussing that a lot.

Here's my take: Greatness comes from within. Just like Fletcher thinks a student destined to become a great won't be discouraged by the abuse he hands out, I don't think an occasional "good job" is going to make that student complacent, either.
 
opentune said:
Teaching by fear, intimidation, nastiness...etc. ? IMO that is totally a stupid, uber-ego, power trip and ineffective. It doesn't work, in sports either.

Not seen the movie yet but saw the trailer and that 'good job' line. They did a good job making him look like an arsehole.
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8Mile said:
My musician and teacher friends have been discussing that a lot.

Here's my take: Greatness comes from within. Just like Fletcher thinks a student destined to become a great won't be discouraged by the abuse he hands out, I don't think an occasional "good job" is going to make that student complacent, either.
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Fletcher's is one of the 2 extremes it seems. The other being "everybody gets a trophy" mindset. While Fletcher's tactics can motivate certain people, I find that most people do better when they are encouraged. Not that I'm a teacher, just an observation.

Ideally, I think you want to raise the bar really high, make students earn things, but at the same time be supportive and encouraging.

Steve Jobs had the ability to make people do things that they didn't think possible. He was a parallel to Fletcher in a way. It takes a lot of something...I don't know what...to be that kind of person.

Some people do respond to impossible demands better than others, it makes them more than what they could have been on their own. I just thought Fletcher was too extreme.

Me I personally feel that people like Fletcher serve a real purpose to certain individuals. Not everybody for sure. But some people need/crave that.
Near the end of the movie, I felt that is was a shame that Fletcher lost his job. Inspiring people is a noble fight. Fletcher had real reasons for his teaching style. His tactics are questionable at times. A movie that really made me think. I agree with Ant, that it was corny, the blood all over the drumset and the bleeding hands and the drama and all that. But I did find some redeeming qualities by how much it made me think. Plus JK Simmons...you can't take your eyes off him when he is in the shot. He is a great actor. Perfect choice for the role. You know when you hate him that he did a great job as an actor. I wonder if that was really him playing the piano in the club near the end. I'm guessing no.
 
I can't even find the movie near me. Big theater companies seem to be shunning it. We have a theater here with something like 30 screens and an Imax, and they don't have it.
 
WhoIsTony? said:
I thought the movie was unbelievably corny and had a very Disney feel to it

and not to mention full of misinformation such as the Papa Jo / Parker story that was told

seemed more like a weak script that was way overacted than a quality film to me
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Bro - Did you not see all the blood all over the drum set? That's supposed to make you feel how real and un-corny this is!

Anyway, I'm going to try that whole "slap the guy and ask if I'm rushing or dragging" bit with my bass player. I bet he will like it. Maybe I will use a rolled up newspaper to really put him in his place.
 
Great movie.


Olympic coaches hand out 3X as many "Good Jobs" than constructive criticism.

At the same time, they hand out criticism. It doesn't help students to tell them a good job wasn't good. That is lying to them and is like telling them their wrong answers on a math test are correct. That is just bad teaching too.

That being said, it is fine to say "good job" to a mediocre performance if it comes from a bad student. "Good job" is relative. If a student is just learning doubles, then getting they basic mechanics correct even if sloppy deserves a "Good job". A student suffering from low self confidence deserves to hear a good job - even if playing below his or her ability - if the lesson being taught is that the student can succeed. That student really did a good job.

Making students angry is potentially a good teaching technique. It isn't normally in my playbook, but I used it a few weeks ago. My student felt that what I was (repeatedly) asking of him was unfair because it was beyond his ability. He needed up getting pissed and started raging on the drums - grooving and throwing fills he'd heard before.... from someone w/ 2 weeks experience + who was struggling to play a basic beat at all in the first place.

For someone to have the drive to be the best, it takes an insane amount of drive. You really have to put your girlfriend/boyfriend away and prioritize what you need to do to be the best above the needs of friends and relations for a while.
 
oh... its fine to say "good job" and better to say "Good work" ... but pretty devastating to say "You've got so much talent!" Telling people that they got where they are because of "talent" or "smarts" or "natural ability" demeans what work they have put in and discourages further work. Worse, if that student runs into trouble later, they are likely to shut down, feeling that the failed because they "don't have what it takes."

Saying good work, on the other hand, puts agency squarely on the student and encourages them to work harder if they run into difficultly.
 
In case people haven't seen these: both Peter Erskine and Michael Shrieve have been interviewed about the movie, and weren't real positive about it. I think I'll wait and see if it comes to a beer theater-- it frankly looks godawful to me. Here's the big pull from Erskine's interview:

I'm disappointed that any viewer of the film will not see the joy of music-making that's almost always a part of large-ensemble rehearsals and performances. Musicians make music because they LOVE music. None of that is really apparent in the film, in my opinion.
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toddbishop said:
In case people haven't seen these: both Peter Erskine and Michael Shrieve have been interviewed about the movie, and weren't real positive about it. I think I'll wait and see if it comes to a beer theater-- it frankly looks godawful to me. Here's the big pull from Erskine's interview:
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well thank you for that. All I needed to read was Shrieve's review and I now know this movie is not for me. It indeed sounds corny and unrealistic. Why didn't they enrol some drum consultants and spare the 'blood on the skins'? That "tough love from teacher" theme seems a re-hash from any old boxing movie. I do love the acting of JK Simmons though.

Can't be too many drummers reviewing it either - Whiplash is scoring 96% on Rotten Tomatoes.
 
People love the hell out of it. There seems to be a sadistic thing going on in the culture right now, and maybe the movie is tapping into that. I guess we'll see some bad teachers getting a whole lot worse after seeing this thing-- they'll take it as permission to let their a-hole flag really fly.
 
I have only seen the trailer, I have worked with abrasive instructors. They either get you to do to things, quit or I'll show you I can do it. I don't care how great or legendary an instructor is, If he where to come up and smack me upside the head, thats crossing the line. I would of most likely got up and punched his freakin lights out. Based on that trailer and from some friends have said who have seen it. I will save my cash.
 
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I really enjoyed it! I thought the acting was superb and the script was decent given the theme, which has been done over and over and over again. I know we're all drummers here but if you plan on seeing it just go in with an open mind. Sure there's some corny bits on screen, I know I probably rolled my eyes several times, but overall I thought it was a really good film. And for the record, while I don't condone hurling cymbals for ANY reason, (for those of you who have seen the movie) I think we can all agree that Andrew WAS rushing just the tiniest, barely perceptible bit.
 
toddbishop said:
People love the hell out of it. There seems to be a sadistic thing going on in the culture right now, and maybe the movie is tapping into that. I guess we'll see some bad teachers getting a whole lot worse after seeing this thing-- they'll take it as permission to let their a-hole flag really fly.
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Exactly. There are scores of people out there and around us operating on false bravado 24/7 - it's sickening. Even worse, some of the some of these people are parents.
 
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