Ignorant, Closed-Minded, Stubborn Non-Drummers?

jondrumming

Senior Member
There's a group of guys at my school, some of them are in a band together. They are all decent at music (although their band is not as amazing as they think they are), but there are only two drummers out of this whole group. There are about 4 guitarists, 1 bass player, and 2 singers. I am in no way being arrogant or cocky, but I have years more experience than both of the drummers, and know a hell of a lot more about the drums than they do (i.e. they refuse to admit that the standard size of a ride cymbal isn't 14 inches). Of course they disagree, but I have no problem with DRUMMERS disagreeing with me! It's all part of the circle of musical opinion, right?

Here's the thing: the guitarists, bassists, singers, etc. have taken their band's "fame" to their head and now think they are the be all and end all of musical authority.

To give you an example: They all think Keith Moon was the best drummer who ever lived. I (respectfully, but strongly) disagreed, I told them there are hundreds of equally, if not more talented drummers than Keith Moon. They hit the roof, pretty much insulting everything about my playing, my musical knowledge, etc.

Here's the thing, though: they demanded to know who I thought was a better drummer than the great Keith Moon, and I listed off drummers like John Blackwell, Akira Jimbo, Jojo Mayer, Nick Barker, Thomas Lang, hell even NEIL PEART!

"NO!! KEITH MOON IS BETTER THAN ALL OF THEM! YOU'RE AN IDIOT, YOU OBVIOUSLY DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT DRUMMERS! YOU SUCK! WE'RE BETTER THAN YOU AND WE DON'T EVEN PLAY THE DRUMS!"

By this point I am shaking my head in disbelief, at this group of non-drummers (whose own band really isn't talented, in the least), who clearly lack the open-mindedness one requires to form a real opinion. They are telling ME, the drummer with 11 years of musical experience, 7 of those being drumming, that I know nothing about music.

Maybe it's just me, but can anyone else not stand those types of people?
 
I'm extremely leary of certain types of questions and comments right now but,

These guys are giving you a great education. Learn and absorb as much as you can then toss it all out knowing you won't be doing yourself any favors with behavior like this.

Do you really want to spend your time and effort playing music with these guys?
 
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Jesus said it best: "Don't cast your pearls before swine".

They are not worth arguing with.

For the record, I can't stand Keith Moon.
 
Unless it is genuinely worth it for you to get in a huge feud just to change these people's minds, get over it and leave them to their short-lived ignorance. They will either overcome their foolishness on their own, or, more likely, end up failing utterly at music and get a normal job more suited to their skills and talents.
 
It sounds as if you have enough of a distaste for these fellows--why do you even bother talking with them? If they bug you so much, leave 'em alone.

Discussions like this happen ALL THE TIME between drummers and musicians. It's great to have conversations and debates about your passions and preferences with other people who enjoy music, but once it turns into a heated argument and insults are thrown around, then it's totally not worth it to continue. If you feel the need to "correct" their way of thinking and participate in arguments with them about trivial stuff like this, and then go onto a drum forum and start a thread with a title that shows your disgust towards them (in so many words), then you are merely behaving in the same way that you are criticizing them for...
 
They sound like a bunch of dumb kids.
 
On the other side of the coin, why is it so important that they be drummers to have an opinion? I think outside perspective is needed that drummers often lack through idolising or hero-worshipping - the most important opinion is not that of the drummer listening, but that of anybody listening.
 
On the other side of the coin, why is it so important that they be drummers to have an opinion? I think outside perspective is needed that drummers often lack through idolising or hero-worshipping - the most important opinion is not that of the drummer listening, but that of anybody listening.

Agree 100% MFB.

I find it hard to work out why guys always have to think of drummers as better or worse than each other. My guess is it's that hindbrain, status driven thing, you know, the alpha male, leader of the pack thing.

I like heaps and heaps of drummers and, while some are more technically adept than others, I don't think they are better than the others. They just do different enjoyable things.

So Jon, IMO you and the Keith Moon fans are both wrong and right.

You are right that the guys you mentioned are technically more accomplished. The other guys are right in that Keith Moon ticks more of the right boxes in areas that they think are more important in a drummer. You are also all wrong in that none of those drummers are better or worse (in the generic sense, meaning "overall quality") than any of the others. Keith was a great showman, had heaps of energy, and his style pleased both his bandmates and millions of fans.

The good news is that, when you leave the artificial hothouse that is the school environment you will find that the people you encounter are, usually, more reasonable :)
 
I am in no way being arrogant or cocky, but I have years more experience than both of the drummers, and know a hell of a lot more about the drums than they do (i.e. they refuse to admit that the standard size of a ride cymbal isn't 14 inches). Of course they disagree, but I have no problem with DRUMMERS disagreeing with me! It's all part of the circle of musical opinion, right?

You better watch out on this forum with comments like that, you might get bashed, just look at my show time thread....
 
I love how Christ-Hammer didn't take one positive thing from everyone in that thread trying to help him and now continues on here. CH, you are *adorable* and I am now fascinated with you. Can we be BFFs? You never did get back to me about the grandma's backyard possibly hosting wrestling as well...?



For the record, in a hypothetical situation where I had to take one drummer's playing to listen to forever and enjoy, I would take Moon over any of those drummers you listed, by a mile. fwiw.
 
There's a group of guys at my school, some of them are in a band together. They are all decent at music (although their band is not as amazing as they think they are), but there are only two drummers out of this whole group. There are about 4 guitarists, 1 bass player, and 2 singers. I am in no way being arrogant or cocky, but I have years more experience than both of the drummers, and know a hell of a lot more about the drums than they do (i.e. they refuse to admit that the standard size of a ride cymbal isn't 14 inches). Of course they disagree, but I have no problem with DRUMMERS disagreeing with me! It's all part of the circle of musical opinion, right?

Here's the thing: the guitarists, bassists, singers, etc. have taken their band's "fame" to their head and now think they are the be all and end all of musical authority.

To give you an example: They all think Keith Moon was the best drummer who ever lived. I (respectfully, but strongly) disagreed, I told them there are hundreds of equally, if not more talented drummers than Keith Moon. They hit the roof, pretty much insulting everything about my playing, my musical knowledge, etc.

Here's the thing, though: they demanded to know who I thought was a better drummer than the great Keith Moon, and I listed off drummers like John Blackwell, Akira Jimbo, Jojo Mayer, Nick Barker, Thomas Lang, hell even NEIL PEART!

"NO!! KEITH MOON IS BETTER THAN ALL OF THEM! YOU'RE AN IDIOT, YOU OBVIOUSLY DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT DRUMMERS! YOU SUCK! WE'RE BETTER THAN YOU AND WE DON'T EVEN PLAY THE DRUMS!"

By this point I am shaking my head in disbelief, at this group of non-drummers (whose own band really isn't talented, in the least), who clearly lack the open-mindedness one requires to form a real opinion. They are telling ME, the drummer with 11 years of musical experience, 7 of those being drumming, that I know nothing about music.

Maybe it's just me, but can anyone else not stand those types of people?

I have this little saying that pretty much sums it up:
Vipercussionist said:
You can't teach a blind man RED.

It means, until he gets the CONCEPT don't expect him to understand your explanation of the reasoning behind it.

If he's never SEEN red, how would you POSSIBLY explain it to him??

Get IT??

Pass it on.
 
Agree 100% MFB.

I find it hard to work out why guys always have to think of drummers as better or worse than each other. My guess is it's that hindbrain, status driven thing, you know, the alpha male, leader of the pack thing.
Ding Ding Ding Ding! just one of the more curious aspects of male primate behavior
 
I love how Christ-Hammer didn't take one positive thing from everyone in that thread trying to help him and now continues on here. CH, you are *adorable* and I am now fascinated with you. Can we be BFFs? You never did get back to me about the grandma's backyard possibly hosting wrestling as well...?



For the record, in a hypothetical situation where I had to take one drummer's playing to listen to forever and enjoy, I would take Moon over any of those drummers you listed, by a mile. fwiw.
Actually I took a lot of positive things from it, but there were many unnecessary negative comments directed towards me and you are probably to ignorant to realize what I took and didn't take from that forum, also your sarcasm towards me doesn't make you sound cool or funny it just makes you sound like you are trying to hard to impress everyone around you, just a heads up.
 
The good news is that, when you leave the artificial hothouse that is the school environment you will find that the people you encounter are, usually, more reasonable :)

Those are my thoughts exactly, High school for the most part is filled with immature attention hungry teenagers. Getting out of that environment should change your perspective on "Ignorant, Closed-Minded, Stubborn Non-Drummers" completely, and for the better. If it doesn't then just maybe you are the Ignorant, Stubborn, Close-minded Drummer.
 
i dont get it...why does it matter that they are non-drummers?

i dont play guitar, but i can tell if someone is good or not. I think Keith Moon was the best drummer of all time, certainly better than the ones you listed. Does that mean im an idiot?
 
Those are my thoughts exactly, High school for the most part is filled with immature attention hungry teenagers. Getting out of that environment should change your perspective on "Ignorant, Closed-Minded, Stubborn Non-Drummers" completely, and for the better. If it doesn't then just maybe you are the Ignorant, Stubborn, Close-minded Drummer.

I would say everyone has their own cockiness
Furb made a wonderful point that.... high school is full of jerks that find it hilarious or empowering to show "lesser" people that they are better then them. I really don't know how you act in situations like these and quite possibly you are doing what I have to admit i have done, and you are alienating these musicians so it is easier for them to make-fun of or pick on you
I am in high school as well and have decided "they are not worth my time, screw em" and I just walk on with my life
just let the real talented people find you.
 
i dont get it...why does it matter that they are non-drummers?

i dont play guitar, but i can tell if someone is good or not. I think Keith Moon was the best drummer of all time, certainly better than the ones you listed. Does that mean im an idiot?
Best point I have seen so far, I think it really is all personal preference, because how do you say someone is better than another when you are comparing art? Unless you are holding a contest like WFD and you are contesting a single technique or something only then I think you could say who is better and only at the contested event. Of course you could say that you think someone is better than another, but it is irrelevant because how do you know if the artist you are discrediting displays all of their skills or techniques that they know. You really can't compare art and say which one is better, because what is better to you isn't necessarily better to the rest of the world. It's the same argument with gear, it's like saying "the Pearl Eliminator is better than the Tama Iron Cobra". It will never come to a balance because they both have ups and downs to them, or if someone uses First Act gear and they think it's the best, maybe it is the best to them, you can't tell anyone what is best to them unless you were telling yourself because it is you that has to decide.
 
Ok, so maybe I'm taking them a bit too seriously... but the point is, I'm not in their face trying to act all superior, I'm just trying to open their eyes a bit. I should probably back off, seeing as it's not really helping, but the part that gets me is that they will NEVER see me bashing them for thinking Jimi Hendrix or Joe Satriani is better than the other. I keep that to myself, because I don't know enough about guitar to say something like that.

That's exactly why I'm calling them ignorant, because they've never touched a drum in their life, and yet they're insulting me for even suggesting that some drummers are better than Keith Moon. Because while Keith Moon was talented, many drummers will concur that he didn't exactly produce the most musical, listenable drumming.
 
Jon, they can sense that you are proud of what have achieved on drums and they are jealous. So they do the old school trick of finding what you are most proud of and they try to undermine it. They know it will annoy you and that's exactly why they are doing it. Kids are always telling each other that they are something that they are not - be it a bad drummer, gay, stupid, ugly, unsociable, retarded etc etc etc and there is one aim to it - to get under your skin and feel the power of manipulating others. It may be one of the few moments of empowerment they have in their little lives.

It's juvenile and senseless so I'm sure you will love tertiary education/work/unemployment as much as I did because so much of that uncivilised childishness is left behind.

Yes, Keith just clattered about the kit in a slapdash way with great gusto. Thing is, he was really, really good at clattering around with gusto (he did the same thing with hotel rooms).
 
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