Comparing Systems for Modern Advanced Coordination

skreg

Senior Member
Hi everybody,

I'm preparing for another round of woodshedding and am again contemplating what to dive into. I'm very happy with all of my coordination and phrasing for rock, pop, jazz, etc. At this point, I'm really just bringing things uptempo and refining my vocabulary within those styles.

With enthusiasm, I'm happy to say that it's time to jump into an advanced coordination system. I do not play metal but have spent time working on double bass technique using Dom Famularo's Pedal Control and the first 4 chapters of Thomas Lang's Creative Coordination and Advanced Foot Technique. I find an autotelic joy in practicing multipedal orchestrations. Now that I'm happy with the rest of my playing, I'm really looking forward to expanding my capacity in a modern and (albeit) superfluous way.

Beyond the simple pleasure of practicing this style of playing, I do have a few goals. My primary goal is to expand my vocabulary in a less traditional direction, and be able to utilize it in a jazz/fusion context. If anybody has seen Virgil Donati's recent work with Allan Holdsworth, this is the kind of thing I have in mind. Eventually, I would love to compose my own music which supports this style of drumming (much like Marco Minnemann).

For more traditional music (almost all music), I'd like to continue playing organically and not impose my chops unnaturally.

There seem to be a handful of systems available for advanced coordination work.

1. Thomas Lang's Creative Coordination and Advanced Foot Technique.

2. Marco Minnemann's Extreme Interdependence.

3. Virgil Donati's Double Bass Drum Freedom (although this is still double-bass oriented).

4. Any others?

I would love to hear any input or thoughts on your experiences working with this kind of material, your practice habits, rate of progress, etc.

How many hours per week do you need to dedicate to maintain momentum?

How does this kind of practice affect the rest of your playing?

One last note: Please refrain from comments such as "that stuff isn't musical" or "there's no good reason to practice that stuff." In music, we are entitled to our own opinions, and mine are pretty firm on this topic.

Thanks in advance,

-sheldon
 
I find an autotelic joy in practicing multipedal orchestrations.

Yeah, you and me both.

From what I can think of off the top of my head, you’ve already mentioned the prime candidates in Lang and Minnemann.

The only addition I would suggest is the classic book 4-Way Coordination by Dahlgren and Fine.
 

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Marco's book was the groundbreaking step. It is the successor to "Advanced Techniques for the Modern Drummer" and "The New Breed".

It was the first book to specifically address the "limb pairs". The developing of coordination against every possible limb pair is a key component of interdependence.

Lang's book is extremely derivative of Minneman's. Marco is not the biggest Lang fan, partially because of this.

Plus, look at who has taken this further. No one is beating Marco at this stuff.
 
Virgil's book covers alot of the important stuff from Thomas Lang's system in just one section so I would forget creative coordination. I never bothered with singles/paraddidles on the feet but I am speaking from experience, I used the creative coordination system years ago, and it was good, but Virgil's book dwarfs it content wise.

I can play a fair way into Virgil's book, and while I can't say I've seen/tried everything (god knows what's in the pages ahead), as the name suggests, it is a bit more bass drum oriented, using lots of kick, snare and hats. I imagine Marco's system would involve using the whole kit. That's just a guess, and I am curious about Marco's book because Virgil apparently said that it's the most important book on coordination to date.

When you say you want some superflous abilities, that's what I observed in Marco's DVD, stuff that I wouldn't really use, although it's technically impressive... and when you say you were inspired watching Virgil I think you should probably just get both those books.
 
Thanks everybody for the insight.

There is the option, of course, to work more than one of them at a time. But, my experience with other coordination books (The New Breed, Open Handed Playing Volume 1) has been that it's better to just work on one at a time.

I keep hearing "Marco, Marco, Marco" so I'm going to see if I can find a copy of the book to look at. I already own Creative Coordination (book and DVD) and I must say that it sets the bar pretty high. It's very organized and the visual demonstrations REALLY help when things are this advanced.

As for Virgil's book, I have a copy of that in my studio (it's my instructor's book, we share the space). I'm going to take a closer look, but my initial impression was that it isn't as cleanly organized or analytic as Lang's book.

That being said, I really really love the playing of all three of these drummers and I'm excited to get started.

-sheldon
 
Alright, I pulled the trigger and ordered a copy of Extreme Interdependence!

Now, which Marco DVD should I pick up first? Or should I get the play-along book?

In the meantime I'm working on Creative Coordination. Groups of three over groups of two today.

Not sure when I'll switch books, it just depends on what the material is like in Marco's book.

-sheldon
 
Hi Dude,

Have a go at this:

http://element-drum-tuition.co.uk/3-over-5-groove-coordination-challenge

It's a fun exercise I was working on recently and enjoyed so much I wrote a blog on it. It phrases a halftime shuffle style hand pattern over 16th notes and then plays a bass drum pattern underneath which is five 16th long. It's groove based and it throws up loads of limb combinations.

Let me know what you think?
 
In the meantime I'm working on Creative Coordination. Groups of three over groups of two today.

Hey skreg, this is probably a little late but just curious, how far have you come with the Creative Coordination exercises? And what was your experience with the Minneman book?
 
Hey skreg, this is probably a little late but just curious, how far have you come with the Creative Coordination exercises? And what was your experience with the Minneman book?

Not too late! I check this page regularly, because practicing this material has become a big part of my life.

I've been working on Creative Coordination and Advanced Foot Technique, on and off, for about 4 years. I'd estimate that I've spent ~18 months total with it (out of those 4 years), practicing daily. I also started from the ground up (with no experience of double bass beforehand).

You really have to practice daily to make progress with advanced coordination challenges. It's tough to maintain a lifestyle which can facilitate the time and energy required. If you've ever been serious about a technical sport, you know the feeling.

Because I started from scratch, I have spent a lot of time just working the first exercise in the book, which is playing singles underneath a 4/4 groove, going from pp-ff, dynamically. I still start my practice sessions working either singles or doubles for 5 minute intervals, until I am playing cleanly at a reasonable tempo. So, maybe 15 or 20 minutes total.

Getting through the first five chapters, at a slow tempo, was tough, but nothing like the later chapters. I'd say it was a year of focused attention to get through the first five - about an hour a day on the exercises. About 1/3 of that time was spent strictly on singles, keep in mind.

If you're not familiar, I believe there is a table of contents on Amazon. Chapter one covers syncopated 16th note patterns in 4/4. Chapter 2 covers syncopated 16th note triplet patterns in 4/4 and 6/8. Chapter 3 covers 32nd syncopated 32nd note patterns in 4/.4. The majority of metal music us based on this kind of thing - playing along precisely with guitar and bass with the kick drum. It's all singles on the feet. Many other systems cover this material in greater depth, because it is the foundation of modern metal.

Chapter 4 is where the material becomes more unique. You play a simple 4/4 beat with the hands, but you play the coordination matrix underneath, with the feet - as continuous 16th notes. This includes both even and odd stickings. RL, RRLL, RRL, RLL, RLLL, RLRLL, and so on, in permutations all the way through groups of 8. This is the foundation of the Coordination Matrix, which is covered in Section 2 (starting with chapter 9).

Chapter 5 takes a break from that, and is a small section of single stroke note groupings for the feet, which combine 8ths, 16ths, and 32nd notes. The trick here is that the patterns alternate right and left foot lead. They are a lot of fun, and I come back to these to work on speed regularly.

Chapter 6 is very intimidating, because it's the chapter on foot doubles. I had to spend a lot of time (months) just getting control of doubles before I even attempted putting the hands over the top. I had to really learn more about foot technique before diving in. Tim Waterson's DVD was a *huge* help.

What's crazy about chapter 6 is that he phrases the doubles as 32nd notes. I am currently practicing the material in chapter 6 at 35 bpm (yes, 35 bpm, not 135)! I don't really expect to play these fast any time soon, but I know it will be worth it once I can.

Chapter 7 covers flam patterns in 4/4, I've skipped that one for now. I've also skipped chapter 8, which introduces multipedal orchestrations in 4/4 - moving the feet between pedals in the context of a groove. I'd love to dig into chapter 8, but I just haven't bought the equipment yet.

Chapter 9 marks the beginning of Section 2, which is the Coordination Matrix. Chapters 9-12 cover the entire Coordination Matrix. It's too complex to explain here, but the idea is to play an ostinato with either the feet or the hands (for example, RLL), and then play all permutations over the top with either the feet or hands (RL, RRLL, RLL, RLLL, etc through groups of 8). Every subdivision is hit in unison and is phrased as 16th notes. Later in the book, the same patterns are revisited, but in mixed note rates (for example, triplets with the hands and 16th notes with the feet).

Chapter 11 covers splitting the ostinatos between the feet and hands. If you've ever seen Virgil's playing on the Planet X album "Quantum", then you know what I'm talking about. This concept has been around since MIke Mangini's early work, but only a handful have ever been able to utilize it, and none as musically as Virgil on Quantum, IMO. I believe Quantum is truly the most progressive drumming album of our time, for this reason alone.

Anyway, I have been able to master all of the hand permutations over foot singles, doubles, groups of three, groups of four, and groups of five. Mind you, I'm not doing anything fast, but I can do it cleanly. I've also mastered all of the hand ostinatos over foot singles and doubles. I'm currently working on hand ostinatos over groups of three with the feet.

These patterns are very challenging, but the feeling of improvising in multiple time signatures is indescribable. Not only do you have to master the coordination, but you have to think very creatively in order to improvise with these patterns. I spend time at the end of my practice sessions improvising with these patterns every session. There are very few musicians utilizing these concepts, so you have to be creative independently, exploring what is possible in this new territory of drumming.

Looking though the book, I'd say I'm about 20-30% through the material. Looking forward, the mixed note rate hand/foot ostinatos look particularly challenging. Getting my doubles up to speed is also proving be very hard.

I knew when I started on this journey that it would take many years. But, I am continuously driven to move forward, because I believe that these concepts are the foundation of the most creative and original drumming happening today.

For anybody else working seriously on these systems - please feel free to contact me personally through the contact form on my site, www.prodrumblog.com, or through PM here. I suspect there are only a handful of us, and I think we could learn a lot by discussing the material in depth together as time passes.

Time to start warming up :)

-sheldon
 
Hi Skreg, i´m so agreed with you with this type of material. I´m practicing thomas matrix also and a few things from the minnemans extreme interindependence book. By the time i´m writting this, i´m in step 3 of the fórmula, doing groups of four with my left hand & foot (starting now with paradiddles. Preaviously I´ve done the other stickings of 4 that were a little easier than jump inmeaditly to the paradiddles). It´s helping a lot with my overall control of the drumset and i´m planing to keep going with it. It´s very fun and challenging, and the results are been great so far!!
 
Has anyone mentioned The New Breed by Gary Chester yet?

I thought that was somewhat the 'gold standard' on the topic, along with the already-mentioned 4-Way Coordination.

Minnemann's may be the new bible on the topic though.
 
Has anyone mentioned The New Breed by Gary Chester yet? I thought that was somewhat the 'gold standard' on the topic, along with the already-mentioned 4-Way Coordination.

I love practicing The New Breed in addition to the Matrix. I tried 4 Way Coordination but it didn't click with me... or I with it..
 
I´ve worked & still work on a lot The New Breed I before moving to something like Langs & Minnemann´s concepts beacouse you need to be prepared with the basics in all your four limbs before attempting to attack that kind of thing. Common subdivisions and ostinatos are a must before this.
I´m also starting the new breed II, some specific sections. Ostinatos in that book are hard!!!
 
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