How do you play clean doubles and rolls around the toms?

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britchops

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I went to drum College for two years and never had a definitive answer about this Question. How do you play clean doubles around the toms??? I was told to keep the 'rolls' to the snare drum, but I am confused as to how doubles can be played cleanly on the toms. Could you guys please 'clean' this issue up for me? What's the best doubles technique to play on the toms for a clean roll around the Kit???

All explanations with Moeller technique greatly appreciated!

Thank for all replies!

TJ
 
I'm not so sure it's so much technique as it is an approach. There are videos of Buddy Rich doing double strokes around on his toms and I would think if you approached it slowly enough and worked your way up in speed, you'd eventually get there. It's the same with everything: walk first, then jog, then get to running. Your mileage will vary ;)
 
How do you get to Carnegie Hall?

That's OK, I can't find Carnegie Hall either.
 
I went to drum College for two years and never had a definitive answer about this Question. How do you play clean doubles around the toms???

You play with double strokes on the toms. If they don't sound the way you want, for whatever reason, then practice them until you have satisfactory results. You should have at least learned THAT in college. :)

I was told to keep the 'rolls' to the snare drum

Oh geez...I sure hope it wasn't a professor who told you this terrible advice!

I am confused as to how doubles can be played cleanly on the toms. Could you guys please 'clean' this issue up for me? What's the best doubles technique to play on the toms for a clean roll around the Kit???

There are four ways:

||: RRLL :||
||: RLLR :||
||: LLRR :||
||: LRRL :||

As far as "doubles technique", I certainly hope you don't mean some kind of "shortcut" or resorting to bouncing the sticks. It takes years of practice to get them clean and up to speed.

All explanations with Moeller technique greatly appreciated!

Nah, I would definitely recommend to NOT use the Moeller Technique. The Moeller Technique teaches you how to control the bounce of a stick, NOT how to play double strokes. Using the Moeller Technique on the toms is a terrible idea, unless you have them cranked to the tension of a tabletop, but that would sound terrible. Besides, Moeller Strokes never sound even due to the accenting and bouncing. You'd be better off sticking to good old double strokes. Oh yeah, and lots and lots of practice!

Good luck!
 
The solution is to play 'push/pull' (or 'play-and-pull') doubles. They require very little rebound so you can play them wherever.

For example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNNwKktUoqM


The first step is to learn a proper "freestroke." The second step is to learn to gently squeeze out the second stroke with your fingers.

Then just practice doubles on a practice pad or on your leg or whatever for however long it takes to get them strong and even.

Good luck.
 
I have been working on this a lot recently. Try practice the open close technique on a pillow. It does wonders
 
I don't have any special technique for it, i simply play doubles on toms the same way I play louder, articulate doubles on the snare. I had a teacher who was subbing for my normal teacher some five years ago who said he couldn't do it, and I simply showed him really slow and he got it. I currently use tightly tuned ambassadors on the toms but I've played doubles on low tuned emperor 14 and 16 inchers aswell. Just start slowly with "hard" doubles.
 
Tune your tom batters (and resos) tight. That makes double stroke rolls around the toms a breeze.
 
I think one of the real challenges to pulling this off is the adjustment in touch and technique needed as the drums get bigger and tunings lower. On smaller drums, I use the same wrist/fingers technique that I would use on a snare drum, but if I'm playing a slack tuned 16" Floor Tom, my second stroke is likely to have a little more help from the wrist.
 
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Dave Weckl plays very clean and exceptionally fast doubles on the toms in his fills. Check his video on hand technique.
 
In my opinion the answer to nearly any question similar to this always starts with: "Play painfully slow, and gradually build speed until you begin to make mistakes, hold for a few counts, and lower yourself back down"

It's really not any different then doing any strength training, except your not there to strengthen muscles so much, we are their more to train reflexes. BUT you are still using a lot of muscles in your hands/wrists/forearm that need to be exercised constitantly to allow you to play single or double strokes on a floor tom at such high speeds, because there is little rebound.


I think it was Vince Gironda (famous bodybuilder/trainer): I remember reading a book once, or swiftly reading it looking for an answer to something, and he wrote a story about how he was doing some body building competition that he had won (one of his first that helped jump start his career as a trainer i believe), he had gone up on stage, and said he was so nervous etc, but once he gained control of himself and "got in the zone", so to speak, he was able to block out everything else, and really focus on the contraction and relaxing of the muscles and did twice as many repetitions of his exercise, with ease, people thought the exercise was a joke to him I guess because it was so flawless, and the contracting of the muscles and relaxation, were so steady.

Just something to think about. Now I don't read too many different books, or dvds etc on technique anymore (mostly because I don't feel a need to), but they all seem to give the same advice.

I think Frank Bellucci had a video where he was talking about playing on practice pads and whatnot. His response to people who said they could play x rudiments on the practice pad at such and such tempos was always, "That's nice, but how about on a 16" floor?"

Ever since I have seen that from Bellucci, I practice a lot of my rudiments on my toms and almost avoid my snare (not completely obviously, snares sound too cool to me at least), I will also practice strictly going in and out of quarter, eighth, sixteenth, triplets and sextuplets, in no special order really, gradually increasing speed, until it's just starting to get sloppy. Best way is to just do it, and make sure you have no tension in your hands/arms. Striving for no tension has forced me into playing "techniques" that I didn't know existed (for instance the moeller) until I started reading about them on forums/videos. I started striving for that after learning a little bit of qigong/tai chi movements and being told if your tensing, your doing it wrong (in different words but that is the idea).

I got a little off topic, I apologize, I just rolled out of bed :)
 
...Nah, I would definitely recommend to NOT use the Moeller Technique. The Moeller Technique teaches you how to control the bounce of a stick, NOT how to play double strokes..

I use Moeller for doubles... A drummer's double stroke roll is only as smooth as it's secondary beat. if your just working only with bounce - it's physically impossible to have the second beat have the same volume as the first beat - so you have to make that second beat. I do it through Moeller, some guys use fingers (push pull, etc.)...

A great way to work on doubles is accented the second note rR lL...
 
Big thanks to all of you for your replies. I've learned more about this subject here than in two years at drum college!!

One Q: When you talk of push/pull strokes Limpyloo do you mean 'pull out' strokes?

Other than that I am very grateful for your time and input.

Back to the practice tom then!!!!!

Cheers all.

T J Shaw
 
Big thanks to all of you for your replies. I've learned more about this subject here than in two years at drum college!!

One Q: When you talk of push/pull strokes Limpyloo do you mean 'pull out' strokes?

Other than that I am very grateful for your time and input.

Back to the practice tom then!!!!!

Cheers all.

T J Shaw

'Pull-out' strokes are a moeller concept that involve playing a 'tap' and then whipping your wrist for the second stroke. They are great for playing certain things (e.g. "Funky Drummer") but not the best for doubles around the kit IMO.

'Push/pull' strokes (aka 'open/close' and 'play/pull') entail playing a normal (free-) stroke with your wrist, and then 'pulling out' the second note by gently clenching your fingers (mostly).

Maybe start with alternating freestroke quarter-notes and then introducing the squeeze-strokes in between (making eighth-notes).

F F F F
FSFSFSFS
F F F F
FSFSFSFS

This has been said a thousand times but I highly suggest getting Jojo Mayer's DVD on hand technique.

Also, this guy talks about it (only worry about the '2 note stroke'...and keep in mind that he's demonstrating a very exaggerated version of the stroke: in practice it will be a much smaller motion).
 
Doubles are a mysterious beast, and it seems like everyone has a different approach. It also seems like all of them work for those who suggest their own approach, which leads me to believe there are many different ways of playing great doubles.

My dad showed me singles and doubles (pretty much the only thing I learned from him.) His approach was to follow through with each note. He'd have me start slowly on the pad, and slowly accelerate my notes until it became a very soft, fast buzz roll.

My first actual drum teacher tried to get me to "control the bounce" but never really went into technique. He could play great doubles but mine were still pretty "mushy" and inarticulate.

My last teacher really went into detail. He plays amazing doubles all over the kit...every note is crystal clear. Like I had learned at first - he had me follow through with every note, making sure I was using my wrist and "pulling the note out" of the head, by using the muscles on the top of my forearms. He showed me some great exercises for accenting the second note, as others have described here.

My doubles aren't world-class by any means, but they're worlds better than they were 2 yrs. ago. No more mush! It took some serious practice and I'm still perfecting it...but I can play nice, clear doubles on any part of the kit.

I'm intrigued by using the Moeller to do this, or the forearm exercise toddbishop describes. I've spent some time w/ the Moeller and find it great for heavy hitting in some cases, but I've generally found it harder to control than using wrist strokes.
 
'Pull-out' strokes are a moeller concept that involve playing a 'tap' and then whipping your wrist for the second stroke. They are great for playing certain things (e.g. "Funky Drummer") but not the best for doubles around the kit IMO.

'Push/pull' strokes (aka 'open/close' and 'play/pull') entail playing a normal (free-) stroke with your wrist, and then 'pulling out' the second note by gently clenching your fingers (mostly).

Maybe start with alternating freestroke quarter-notes and then introducing the squeeze-strokes in between (making eighth-notes).

F F F F
FSFSFSFS
F F F F
FSFSFSFS

This has been said a thousand times but I highly suggest getting Jojo Mayer's DVD on hand technique.

Also, this guy talks about it (only worry about the '2 note stroke'...and keep in mind that he's demonstrating a very exaggerated version of the stroke: in practice it will be a much smaller motion).

Thanks for the quick reply. I get you now and will work on the free strokes with the pull out finger strokes after. The secret is being revealed at last!!!!

I really appreciate this. It's been bugging me for years!!

Cheers

TJ
 
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